Comments on: Out of sight, out of mind, out of job: The reality of job protection while on maternity or parental leave http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/04/27/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-out-of-job-the-reality-of-job-protection-while-on-maternity-or-parental-leave/ ...exploring the art and science of parenting Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:24:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Denise http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/04/27/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-out-of-job-the-reality-of-job-protection-while-on-maternity-or-parental-leave/#comment-123377 Denise Wed, 27 Apr 2011 16:05:07 +0000 http://www.phdinparenting.com/?p=1642#comment-123377 My sister-in-law is currently going through some problems with her work ever since she has become pregnant. She did IVF and missed a lot of work due to that. They did not give her a raise at Christmas because of it, even though they gave almost everyone else one, and they changed her from salary to hourly, which I am told is perfectly legal. Then she had a really rough pregnancy, her doctor told her her at 6m pregnant she couldn't be on her feet and that she needed a desk job. The company promised to find her other work, but did not come through. Her doctor ended up putting her on modified bed rest because of this. She ended up having to go on disability and leave work earlier. The only positive that has come from this story is that now that she is on EI her maternity leave doesn't kick in until the day her baby is born, and she does not plan on returning to that job, though she won't tell them that, I know there are a lot of great companies out there that value their workers, but there are also a lot of skeezy ones that Skirt the law. My sister-in-law is currently going through some problems with her work ever since she has become pregnant. She did IVF and missed a lot of work due to that. They did not give her a raise at Christmas because of it, even though they gave almost everyone else one, and they changed her from salary to hourly, which I am told is perfectly legal. Then she had a really rough pregnancy, her doctor told her her at 6m pregnant she couldn’t be on her feet and that she needed a desk job. The company promised to find her other work, but did not come through. Her doctor ended up putting her on modified bed rest because of this. She ended up having to go on disability and leave work earlier. The only positive that has come from this story is that now that she is on EI her maternity leave doesn’t kick in until the day her baby is born, and she does not plan on returning to that job, though she won’t tell them that,
I know there are a lot of great companies out there that value their workers, but there are also a lot of skeezy ones that Skirt the law.

]]> By: Amanda http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/04/27/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-out-of-job-the-reality-of-job-protection-while-on-maternity-or-parental-leave/#comment-8106 Amanda Sat, 20 Jun 2009 03:28:55 +0000 http://www.phdinparenting.com/?p=1642#comment-8106 Thank you for this article. I was one of those unlucky people who was fired while on my maternity leave. I was 3 weeks shy of my 1 yr mark to receive FMLA and yet my boss led me to believe I was receiving it(had me fill out paperwork and never told me it didn't go through) After working until the day before my son was due(and born on his due date) I gave her a doctors note putting me on maternity leave. 2 days before I was to return to work I received a letter from the corporation stating I was fired for being absent from work 3 or more consecutive days. I have since taken up my case with the Civil Rights Commission and won and am now pursuing this in a federal court. This all sounds crazy that in 2009 it happens but it does. I am so happy to see that my son and I could do this and come out ahead. I'd never trade him for the world. I will say too it happens in ALL industries. I worked as a teacher in a childcare center and it happened there..so even in the most "mother friendly" places it happens. Thank you for this article. I was one of those unlucky people who was fired while on my maternity leave. I was 3 weeks shy of my 1 yr mark to receive FMLA and yet my boss led me to believe I was receiving it(had me fill out paperwork and never told me it didn’t go through) After working until the day before my son was due(and born on his due date) I gave her a doctors note putting me on maternity leave. 2 days before I was to return to work I received a letter from the corporation stating I was fired for being absent from work 3 or more consecutive days. I have since taken up my case with the Civil Rights Commission and won and am now pursuing this in a federal court. This all sounds crazy that in 2009 it happens but it does. I am so happy to see that my son and I could do this and come out ahead. I’d never trade him for the world. I will say too it happens in ALL industries. I worked as a teacher in a childcare center and it happened there..so even in the most “mother friendly” places it happens.

]]> By: Sean http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/04/27/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-out-of-job-the-reality-of-job-protection-while-on-maternity-or-parental-leave/#comment-5680 Sean Sun, 10 May 2009 16:34:53 +0000 http://www.phdinparenting.com/?p=1642#comment-5680 Heck, if companies started behaving like that, we might not have any economic crises in the first place! Heck, if companies started behaving like that, we might not have any economic crises in the first place!

]]> By: Janeen http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/04/27/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-out-of-job-the-reality-of-job-protection-while-on-maternity-or-parental-leave/#comment-5222 Janeen Mon, 04 May 2009 09:33:12 +0000 http://www.phdinparenting.com/?p=1642#comment-5222 Oh, I definitely agree with that. There are times I feel that I should be the one to go back to work while my husband stays at home with our daughter because I think he would make the better stay at home parent. He's also better at many of the domestic tasks than I am, he just can't breastfeed. ;-) And it is not individual families at all that has caused the situation we're in but society in general that has brought about this, the idea that we (general we here) need all of these various things for as cheap as possible made of the cheapest stuff as possible has really affected a lot of things and now, we're starting to see the effects of it. What would be nice to see is people getting together and helping each other out instead of isolating each other. The isolation is not doing anyone any favors. I think it does take a village to raise a child and we all could use some help. One of the BIG ways is when a baby is born people helping the mom out. SO many moms get overwhelmed right after having a baby and it's not always possible for the father to take time off to help. I know for my husband, he ended up being fired RIGHT AFTER he turned in his FMLA paperwork. They say it was due to something else and it very well could have but the timing was HIGHLY suspect. He was only going to take two weeks off but the supervisor was having issues of her own too and I'm sure that didn't help. He was fired less than a week before I was due with our daughter. He ended up losing his second job less than a month after that and I'm sure part of that was due to him not being all there that week after our daughter was born but he couldn't afford to take the time off then. I now wish he had, maybe he wouldn't have lost that job. He never was told why he was fired from the second one either. Oh, I definitely agree with that. There are times I feel that I should be the one to go back to work while my husband stays at home with our daughter because I think he would make the better stay at home parent. He’s also better at many of the domestic tasks than I am, he just can’t breastfeed. ;-)

And it is not individual families at all that has caused the situation we’re in but society in general that has brought about this, the idea that we (general we here) need all of these various things for as cheap as possible made of the cheapest stuff as possible has really affected a lot of things and now, we’re starting to see the effects of it.

What would be nice to see is people getting together and helping each other out instead of isolating each other. The isolation is not doing anyone any favors. I think it does take a village to raise a child and we all could use some help. One of the BIG ways is when a baby is born people helping the mom out. SO many moms get overwhelmed right after having a baby and it’s not always possible for the father to take time off to help. I know for my husband, he ended up being fired RIGHT AFTER he turned in his FMLA paperwork. They say it was due to something else and it very well could have but the timing was HIGHLY suspect. He was only going to take two weeks off but the supervisor was having issues of her own too and I’m sure that didn’t help. He was fired less than a week before I was due with our daughter. He ended up losing his second job less than a month after that and I’m sure part of that was due to him not being all there that week after our daughter was born but he couldn’t afford to take the time off then. I now wish he had, maybe he wouldn’t have lost that job. He never was told why he was fired from the second one either.

]]> By: phdinparenting http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/04/27/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-out-of-job-the-reality-of-job-protection-while-on-maternity-or-parental-leave/#comment-5208 phdinparenting Mon, 04 May 2009 03:36:29 +0000 http://www.phdinparenting.com/?p=1642#comment-5208 <strong>@Janeen:</strong> I would agree that most families probably don't need two incomes and could find ways to be creative and do with one. But I don't think that always needs to mean that the man works and the woman stays home. My husband is a stay at home dad. We know other families where the parents both have flexible schedules or are self-employed and can share in both work and home tasks. @Janeen: I would agree that most families probably don’t need two incomes and could find ways to be creative and do with one. But I don’t think that always needs to mean that the man works and the woman stays home. My husband is a stay at home dad. We know other families where the parents both have flexible schedules or are self-employed and can share in both work and home tasks.

]]> By: Janeen http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/04/27/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-out-of-job-the-reality-of-job-protection-while-on-maternity-or-parental-leave/#comment-5206 Janeen Mon, 04 May 2009 02:46:53 +0000 http://www.phdinparenting.com/?p=1642#comment-5206 You know, reading these has me wondering if anything has really been accomplished by the feminist movement. Women STILL have to basically choose between career and home, they cannot get it all. There's still a lot of societal expectation of women to have children but at the same time, there's a lot of expectation for women to "do her part". It makes for a VERY confused situation. And worse, those who end up bearing the brunt of the problems are families and innocent children. Sorry to say, but not ALL care outside the mom being at home is the best for the child. There are MANY situations where children have been harmed or even killed while under someone else's care (and yes, there are many that have the same happen under the parental care as well). I think we're looking at a HUGE fundamental shift in thinking here. Yeah, right now, we're in a time where two incomes are needed. The problem is, is that there just are not enough jobs for two incomes. So, that means that families have to cut things out, become more self-sufficient. Maybe it means learning to grow our own food again or learning basics like sewing and cooking. Have you noticed that it is those who have carried on old-fashioned values and skills that are doing pretty well? I think we have come to depend on too many things and have taken many other things for granted. We have finally reached a breaking point because of this and now, we need to step back, analyze what is REALLY important, and go back to that. For too long, we have focused on material possessions and consumer goods and how much stuff we can have/own/buy at one time. Credit cards have definitely not helped that. These are just not values that can be supported for very long periods of time. It just doesn't work. Things are going to have to change and things WILL change eventually and I think once that happens, the economy will start to improve. Until then, it is going to be a huge struggle for all of us. You know, reading these has me wondering if anything has really been accomplished by the feminist movement. Women STILL have to basically choose between career and home, they cannot get it all. There’s still a lot of societal expectation of women to have children but at the same time, there’s a lot of expectation for women to “do her part”. It makes for a VERY confused situation. And worse, those who end up bearing the brunt of the problems are families and innocent children.

Sorry to say, but not ALL care outside the mom being at home is the best for the child. There are MANY situations where children have been harmed or even killed while under someone else’s care (and yes, there are many that have the same happen under the parental care as well). I think we’re looking at a HUGE fundamental shift in thinking here. Yeah, right now, we’re in a time where two incomes are needed. The problem is, is that there just are not enough jobs for two incomes. So, that means that families have to cut things out, become more self-sufficient. Maybe it means learning to grow our own food again or learning basics like sewing and cooking. Have you noticed that it is those who have carried on old-fashioned values and skills that are doing pretty well? I think we have come to depend on too many things and have taken many other things for granted. We have finally reached a breaking point because of this and now, we need to step back, analyze what is REALLY important, and go back to that.

For too long, we have focused on material possessions and consumer goods and how much stuff we can have/own/buy at one time. Credit cards have definitely not helped that. These are just not values that can be supported for very long periods of time. It just doesn’t work. Things are going to have to change and things WILL change eventually and I think once that happens, the economy will start to improve. Until then, it is going to be a huge struggle for all of us.

]]> By: Alina http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/04/27/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-out-of-job-the-reality-of-job-protection-while-on-maternity-or-parental-leave/#comment-4940 Alina Wed, 29 Apr 2009 03:31:59 +0000 http://www.phdinparenting.com/?p=1642#comment-4940 I live in the USA and was almost laid off during my maternity leave. When I returned to work, I discovered my job was completely changed -- I was transfered to a different department, new manager, new job, new everything except the same pay. This was all a huge shock to me. Looking back, I am lucky I was not laid off upon my return -- if I had given birth six months later, that might have been the case (if I had returned during this current economy). In a tight economy where there are plenty of people out of work or underemployed, there is little or no incentive for employers to bend over backwards to support working mothers. Why hire a woman of two kids age 2 and under vs. a younger woman with no husband or children? In an interview you can tell by the ring if someone is married and many times, people volunteer personal information during an interview. Or, after three months on a new job, when the mom has to stay home with sick kids who can't go to daycare, why should the employer be supportive of her? I find myself working EXTRA hard in my job. I strive to over-exceed the goals set for me. I try to get all of my work done as fast as possible. This is because I know that my two kids often become sick and must stay home from daycare. Plus, I was pumping 3x per day. Therefore, I push myself above and beyond while I'm at the office in order to "prove" that I'm just as good. I'm not sure what the solution really is. If I was a manager I might not want to hire me, either. Maybe the real solution is to design families and lifestyles around a single income... to really analyze your budget and needs before giving birth. If I had to go back and give myself and my husband pre-child advice it would have been to clean up our personal balance sheet and trim down our cash flow. I live in the USA and was almost laid off during my maternity leave. When I returned to work, I discovered my job was completely changed — I was transfered to a different department, new manager, new job, new everything except the same pay. This was all a huge shock to me. Looking back, I am lucky I was not laid off upon my return — if I had given birth six months later, that might have been the case (if I had returned during this current economy).

In a tight economy where there are plenty of people out of work or underemployed, there is little or no incentive for employers to bend over backwards to support working mothers. Why hire a woman of two kids age 2 and under vs. a younger woman with no husband or children? In an interview you can tell by the ring if someone is married and many times, people volunteer personal information during an interview. Or, after three months on a new job, when the mom has to stay home with sick kids who can’t go to daycare, why should the employer be supportive of her?

I find myself working EXTRA hard in my job. I strive to over-exceed the goals set for me. I try to get all of my work done as fast as possible. This is because I know that my two kids often become sick and must stay home from daycare. Plus, I was pumping 3x per day. Therefore, I push myself above and beyond while I’m at the office in order to “prove” that I’m just as good.

I’m not sure what the solution really is. If I was a manager I might not want to hire me, either. Maybe the real solution is to design families and lifestyles around a single income… to really analyze your budget and needs before giving birth. If I had to go back and give myself and my husband pre-child advice it would have been to clean up our personal balance sheet and trim down our cash flow.

]]> By: Annette http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/04/27/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-out-of-job-the-reality-of-job-protection-while-on-maternity-or-parental-leave/#comment-4920 Annette Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:34:29 +0000 http://www.phdinparenting.com/?p=1642#comment-4920 Thanks for this post. I am the mother of 2 daughters as well as a senior human resources professional in Canada. While there are certainly many unscrupulous employers out there, I am beginning to see a rise in forward thinking employers who see the true value and importance of having a diverse workforce. With good talent being hard to find and retain, an employer who wants to remain competitive needs to have policies in place to keep good employees happy and loyal. For example, most of the country's “top” employers have some form of paid parental leave program, whereby an employee's government benefits are toped-up by the employer so that the employee receives close to 100% of their salary while on leave. Public sector employer have had such policies in place for many years now and the private sector – even some small businesses - is catching up. We need to see more of this. Replacing an employee is *extremely* costly. Smart employers know this. I have had employers in the private sector offer positions to mothers on maternity leave because they were the best person for the job. I have also experienced companies offering jobs to someone who is pregnant. It does happen. I do agree with much of what zchaumu has said. Indeed, a woman on maternity leave often does get the short end of the stick. This is most certainly true in a times such as these when an employer can play the “economic crisis” card. One small piece of advice that I give to people taking parental leave is to remain on the employer's radar for the entire time that you are away on leave. Bring your baby in to meet your colleagues; attend important departmental meetings; go the office holiday party. A year can be a very long time to be away... Thanks for this post. I am the mother of 2 daughters as well as a senior human resources professional in Canada. While there are certainly many unscrupulous employers out there, I am beginning to see a rise in forward thinking employers who see the true value and importance of having a diverse workforce. With good talent being hard to find and retain, an employer who wants to remain competitive needs to have policies in place to keep good employees happy and loyal. For example, most of the country’s “top” employers have some form of paid parental leave program, whereby an employee’s government benefits are toped-up by the employer so that the employee receives close to 100% of their salary while on leave. Public sector employer have had such policies in place for many years now and the private sector – even some small businesses – is catching up. We need to see more of this.

Replacing an employee is *extremely* costly. Smart employers know this. I have had employers in the private sector offer positions to mothers on maternity leave because they were the best person for the job. I have also experienced companies offering jobs to someone who is pregnant. It does happen.

I do agree with much of what zchaumu has said. Indeed, a woman on maternity leave often does get the short end of the stick. This is most certainly true in a times such as these when an employer can play the “economic crisis” card. One small piece of advice that I give to people taking parental leave is to remain on the employer’s radar for the entire time that you are away on leave. Bring your baby in to meet your colleagues; attend important departmental meetings; go the office holiday party. A year can be a very long time to be away…

]]> By: Jessica - This is Worthwhile http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/04/27/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-out-of-job-the-reality-of-job-protection-while-on-maternity-or-parental-leave/#comment-4918 Jessica - This is Worthwhile Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:40:51 +0000 http://www.phdinparenting.com/?p=1642#comment-4918 With FMLA it's unpaid leave, rendering that option obsolete for many families. It does protect your job, but certainly not your income during the absence. I had many friends who just took their 8 weeks, got notes written from their OBs to extend their leave for a couple of weeks (considered sick leave by the office) and then finally came back. It's an interesting issue and one that the US is certainly lagging behind. I just read an interesting <a href="http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19971101-000028.html" rel="nofollow">article</a> in Psych Today about the politics of putting family first (it's not about mat leave, per se, but if you're going to support the family and its function, I believe mat leave is certainly a critical component of that). I am just now beginning a journey to fight for better parental rights here in the States, particularly surrounding pregnancy and birth. Women shouldn't be in this vulnerable position of having to choose between a roof over her head and caring for her infant. I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I thought Canada had the right idea... And the truth is that any employee who takes advantage of corporate or federal sponsored programs that take them away from the office are discriminated against to some degree. The guy who slaves away in the office with no sign of stopping will usually get the promotion or the job saved. And I deliberately said "guy," because it's usually women that stay home with sick kids, take care of ailing relatives, etc. It's all a big mess and that's why I want to find out what I can do to change things, to help women (and men) who want to provide the absolute best for their kids through financial stability and loving parenting. Great post. It's helping to straighten out my <a href="http://thisisworthwhile.blogspot.com/2009/04/sweaty-hamster.html" rel="nofollow">thoughts</a> on this some more.... With FMLA it’s unpaid leave, rendering that option obsolete for many families. It does protect your job, but certainly not your income during the absence. I had many friends who just took their 8 weeks, got notes written from their OBs to extend their leave for a couple of weeks (considered sick leave by the office) and then finally came back.

It’s an interesting issue and one that the US is certainly lagging behind. I just read an interesting article in Psych Today about the politics of putting family first (it’s not about mat leave, per se, but if you’re going to support the family and its function, I believe mat leave is certainly a critical component of that).

I am just now beginning a journey to fight for better parental rights here in the States, particularly surrounding pregnancy and birth. Women shouldn’t be in this vulnerable position of having to choose between a roof over her head and caring for her infant. I don’t think they are mutually exclusive.

I thought Canada had the right idea…

And the truth is that any employee who takes advantage of corporate or federal sponsored programs that take them away from the office are discriminated against to some degree. The guy who slaves away in the office with no sign of stopping will usually get the promotion or the job saved. And I deliberately said “guy,” because it’s usually women that stay home with sick kids, take care of ailing relatives, etc. It’s all a big mess and that’s why I want to find out what I can do to change things, to help women (and men) who want to provide the absolute best for their kids through financial stability and loving parenting.

Great post. It’s helping to straighten out my thoughts on this some more….

]]> By: phdinparenting http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/04/27/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-out-of-job-the-reality-of-job-protection-while-on-maternity-or-parental-leave/#comment-4912 phdinparenting Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:57:49 +0000 http://www.phdinparenting.com/?p=1642#comment-4912 <strong>@zchamu </strong> Your opinion is not unpopular with me. Many of the points you make are the exact reason I chose to wrote this. I think many women are naive about the safety of their job and I wanted to highlight here that it is not as safe as they think it is. I also wanted to highlight the fact that there are employers out there that do discriminate and some of them will hide that discrimination under a veil of "oh, we were just letting people off anyways". When the lay-offs disproportionately end up affecting those that do want to seek out work-life balance, then it is inappropriate. With regards to women deciding whether or not we can professionally and personally afford to take a full year of maternity, I agree that the responsibility falls with us. But I also think that a great many employers and government policies could be made more "family friendly" to make that decision easier for women and to allow us to invest in our families while also trying to survive the economic climate For my family, the best option was for me to take a shorter leave (3 months with my son, 6 months with my daughter) and for my husband to stay at home. For me, the answer was starting my own company so that I could decide when to push harder at work and when to take time for my family without having to worry about what my boss thought of it. I live up to my commitments to my clients, otherwise they wouldn't hire me back, but I have the flexibility to decide which projects to take on and which ones to turn down and to work in partnership with my clients to set a reasonable time table for achieving results. @zchamu

Your opinion is not unpopular with me.

Many of the points you make are the exact reason I chose to wrote this. I think many women are naive about the safety of their job and I wanted to highlight here that it is not as safe as they think it is. I also wanted to highlight the fact that there are employers out there that do discriminate and some of them will hide that discrimination under a veil of “oh, we were just letting people off anyways”. When the lay-offs disproportionately end up affecting those that do want to seek out work-life balance, then it is inappropriate.

With regards to women deciding whether or not we can professionally and personally afford to take a full year of maternity, I agree that the responsibility falls with us. But I also think that a great many employers and government policies could be made more “family friendly” to make that decision easier for women and to allow us to invest in our families while also trying to survive the economic climate

For my family, the best option was for me to take a shorter leave (3 months with my son, 6 months with my daughter) and for my husband to stay at home.
For me, the answer was starting my own company so that I could decide when to push harder at work and when to take time for my family without having to worry about what my boss thought of it. I live up to my commitments to my clients, otherwise they wouldn’t hire me back, but I have the flexibility to decide which projects to take on and which ones to turn down and to work in partnership with my clients to set a reasonable time table for achieving results.

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