A lot of people objected to my last post for a lot of different reasons.I addressed a lot of them in the comments, but I wanted to rehash one of them, using some new, less offensive and perhaps more easily understood analogies this time.
A number of people said that if you have tried gentle methods and your child still isn’t sleeping the way you would like them to, then you may have to use some form of cry it out. If you don’t, your baby will be sleep deprived and since healthy sleep is important, you need to use cry it out.
Where have I heard something like this before?
Oh right…
Women that formula feed.
Women that have c-sections.
They say that it was unavoidable. That they were the unlucky one that couldn’t breastfeed or couldn’t have a vaginal birth. That is true for some. But we all know that for the vast majority of women that end up with a c-section or end up feeding formula, it could have been avoided.
- It could have been avoided if they knew more about how breastfeeding works or how to avoid unnecessary birth interventions.
- It could have been avoided if they didn’t have ridiculous pressure put on them by society.
- It could have been avoided if they didn’t get bad advice from medical professionals that are supposed to be there to help them.
- It could have been avoided if they had received the support they deserved from their loved ones.
- It could have been avoided if there wasn’t such bad advice and so many myths floating around.
We all know that breastfeeding rates are much lower than they should be. We all know that c-section rates are much higher than they should be. There are people for whom formula and c-sections are life savers. But most people that use them do so due to factors that can be and that should be addressed.
I think it is the same situation with cry it out.
- It could be avoided if more people were knowledgeable about normal infant sleep and how to promote good sleep habits.
- It could have been avoided if they didn’t have ridiculous pressure put on them by society to have their baby sleep through the night.
- It could have been avoided if their doctor didn’t suggest that something was wrong if their baby wasn’t sleeping through the night and if the doctor didn’t recommend some “tough love”.
- It could have been avoided if they had received the support they deserved from a spouse, friends, parents, or other loved ones that could have provided a much needed break or nap.
- It could have been avoided if there wasn’t such bad advice and so many myths floating around.
Human beings have limits. I understand that. That is why some people do turn to formula not because it was impossible to breastfeed, but because they were facing challenges that were so significant that they just couldn’t continue with breastfeeding. That is why some people that could theoretically have a vaginal birth end up asking for an epidural to dull the pain which then slows the birth process and lands them in surgery. That is why some people in despair turn to the cry it out method when they think they have tried everything else. We are all human. We all have limits. I don’t judge individual people for the choices they feel they have to make (although I will get very uncomfortable and probably leave if you let your baby cry it out while I am at your house).
But just because some people feel the need to use cry it out it doesn’t make it better, or equal to using gentle methods to get a baby to sleep. Just as formula and c-sections are not better or equal to breastfeeding or vaginal birth. Perhaps in some circumstances they end up being what is best for someone, but on the whole they are not the best choice.
With sleep as with breastfeeding and birth issues, on this blog, I will promote the best choice and discuss the risks or disadvantages of other choices. Not to make moms that felt they had no choice feel bad. But to help those that are trying to decide, that are mulling over the bad advice they got from their doctor or their girlfriend, that are trying to convince their spouse. Sometimes research helps with those things. Sometimes analogies help. Sometimes stories help. There is a mix of all three on this blog.
Before I finish and to just put the icing on this analogy, there is something I need to say. With respect. There are people that have strong, unapologetic opinions about women who don’t put forth the full effort to avoid formula or avoid a c-section. That is their prerogative. I have a strong, unapologetic opinion about the use of the cry it out method. That is my prerogative. To be frank, I would sooner choose formula and get an elective c-section than let my baby cry to sleep alone in a dark room. You might not come to the same conclusion and that is your prerogative.
*If you feel the need to quote or paraphrase me in the comments of this post or elsewhere on the Internet, please do so accurately. I am happy to debate and discuss my opinions, but I hate being misquoted and can’t guarantee a civil response to a mean-spirited comment that misquotes me.
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I got goosebumps reading this post. Thank you for writing this!
ooo great post but i definitely enjoyed your last one a lot more! i like it better when your more blunt and don’t try and sugar coat your opinions
@jane: Thank you! I had goosebumps writing it too.
@toni: Thanks. I didn’t think I was sugar coating though…hmm…
@diana: Yes. A lot of people have unrealistic expectations.
this is the first time I’ve stumbled across your blog. I’m almost a mom (35 weeks pregnant!) and have been looked at like I am insane when I tell people I’m going to have a natural birth without an epidural. And that I’m not interested in formula. I’m a young mom to be at 20, and your blog has honestly given me really fabulous resources and reassurance that I am not crazy.
And you are extremely articulate, I like that too.
@Jordan: Thank you so much! Congratulations to you and way to stick to your guns.
@Naomi: Agree. I have no idea how to desensitize myself to an infant’s cries. I don’t think it is natural at all.
‘A number of people said that if you have tried gentle methods and your child still isn’t sleeping the way you would like them to, then you may have to use some form of cry it out’
Or maybe you should reconsider what YOU think is a good sleeping habbit.
I think having realistic expectations is really the key here people! I also think desensitizeing yourself to your infants cries is never good.
There is a difference. iIt’s easier to justify formula-feeding and c-section because they can involve life and death issues. Parents who refuse to give their babies formula or to agree to a c/s in a critical situation could be putting themselves and/or their babies at risk. It should never get to that point but it can happen; I just heard about a baby who lost weight and the well-baby clinic just sent the mother home without guidance. They ended up in the hospital for 3 days due to dehydration. Yes, the mother should have gotten help sooner and they were failed by the system.
There are perhaps cases, such as with severe untreated depression, that a child’s sleep issues are a matter of life and death. In that case, though, the sleep issues are the least of the parents’ problems.
Yes!! I so agree, and frequently wonder if CIO trauma doesn’t account for the prevelance of kids and adults being “afraid of the dark.” Spouse still likes to sleep with a light on and I wonder if it wasn’t dark room abandonment that led him there.
In any case, please don’t be surprised if my next co-sleeping rant libks back to this.
well, I was very sleep deprived with a high need baby who would not nap during the day and would cry a lot in the evening, with constant feeding being the only thing that would calm her. She would feed at least 3 times during the night until she was 17 months when I gently weaned her from night feeds between midnight and 5am (by fully cosleeping for a week). She also didn’t settle other than through feeding to sleep until then. I think I read every sleep book there is, and at times I was so desperate that I tried to leave the room when she cried. I did it twice, once I let her cry for 2 mins, another time for 5. She got so incredibly upset that it took ages to reassure. There is no way that crying it out would have done my child any good at all, I’m very sure of this. She was the last to sleep through in my circle of friends, I envied other parents, and feared she would get into a habit of never being able to sleep well.
She’s 27 months now, sleeps through every night, and goes down without any problems at all. After 20 months or so of cosleeping part of the night, she now likes to sleep in her own bed. She likes her sleep, her bed and her parents. I never thought this would happen, yet it did, without crying it out and only with very gentle sleep training that didn’t involve crying but simple explanation and lots of cuddles.
When you’re in it though, it can be hard to believe that patterns will change and that your baby may just have different needs. And yes, I was extremely sleep deprived, it wasn’t easy, but once I accepted that crying it out wasn’t an option for me, I also accepted the very broken nights and that helped to get on with it. But we did it eventually, and I think what’s lacking is to see the normality of such a situation, and the light of the end of the tunnel.
I do recall a friend who said that she would get strep whenever she didn’t get enough sleep so she let her children CIO. To her I guess it felt like a health issue. I didn’t know her at the time.
Have I mentioned how much I love your blog? This is so in tune with my values as a parent!
My husband suggested just for a fleeting moment that we try letting our newborn (who it looks like will be born today) CIO to make things “easier.” I fought him tooth and nail on it and will fight anyone else who suggests that it’s ever ok to let my baby CIO. I can’t imagine the terror that an infant must feel when they are left alone in this big unfamiliar place to figure things out by themselves. It makes me cringe just thinking about it!
In response to, “There are people that have strong, unapologetic opinions about women who don’t put forth the full effort to avoid formula or avoid a c-section. That is their prerogative. I have a strong, unapologetic opinion about the use of the cry it out method. That is my prerogative.”
I have a strong, unapologetic opinion on both. While I understand that sometimes, though rare, formula and c-sections are medically necessary, I think the systems and care providers that are there to guide us fail us more often than not.
I love hearing about other women out there that are strong enough to take a stand for themselves and their babies!
I like your first analogy better.
Your other analogy was simple and straightforward, if a little clumsy. This analogy is too broad, and on most counts, doesn’t even correlate.
Okay, first of all, there are some instances in which formula use or c-section is genuinely medically indicated, so it is not a choice for some women. CIO is NEVER required, so it is a choice for all women.
Second, the majority of women who formula feed or get c-sections were likely railroaded into those choices, and so did not feel as if they had a choice at the time (which is what you’re saying). But you are also saying that people who use CIO are also railroaded into that choice, and I disagree. Once again, you fail to take into account (or at least fail to say it here) that there are different degrees of CIO. The actual instances of hard-core, fundamental CIO, like leaving the baby in a dark crib to cry for hours on end until they pass out, is probably in the minority of homes.
I would guess the majority of women use some kind of combination of gentle and CIO techniques, or some sort of compromise method that are talked about in several books. But I don’t think they are being railroaded into that decision – they are trying to find a happy compromise between two opposite philosophies, one being never let the baby cry at all, and the other being ignore your baby altogether.
In this respect, I think what you are more accurately comparing is the number of women who choose to formula feed or have a c-section electively, without medical indication or coercion, with those who do hard-core CIO, and then I might agree with you. It’s not cool.
But that brings me back to the point I just made, that there are many degrees of sleep methods. This is not true of formula or c-sections – they either are or aren’t. You can’t compromise on a more natural formula, or a more natural c-section. However, there are probably thousands of slight variations on the sleep training methods. And even the same mother may use different versions of different methods on different nights – you can’t do that with formula feeding or c-section.
In that respect, it would be more properly analogous to women who pump breast milk and feed their children with bottles, or women who choose to choose to birth in the hospital instead of home, without using an epidural. In those instances, you have women all making relatively healthy choices, but in variation. And some would say that they are making lesser choices, but those choices still exist on the natural spectrum.
I don’t know if you intended to leave it out, but whenever I run across these type of posts against the “CIO” method, there is never any mention of any degrees of CIO or compromise philosophies; it is always an all-or-nothing affair: you either let your child cry and be a horrible monster, or you never let your child cry, and be a perfect gentle mommy. But the thing is, sometimes kids will cry. Sometimes mommies choose to let their children cry. However, letting a child cry for 5 minutes is NOT the same thing as letting a child scream in desperation for 2 hours. I’m sure you agree with me on that, but you don’t explain that here.
The problem with that is it creates a polarizing effect: mothers saying that any amount of crying is torturous, and mothers saying that AP kids are not ever getting any sleep. Then the mothers themselves are in turmoil every single night at bedtime: they set their baby down to sleep, and baby starts crying. Do I let them cry? If so for how long? Am I going to scar them for life? But I’m AP, I can’t let them cry! But sometimes babies don’t want to go to sleep, isn’t it natural for them to protest? Crying never killed anyone…but I can’t be a “CIO” person because those people are heartless and evil! and so on…
See, there is no compromise on formula or c-sections. Formula and c-sections are universally harmful to some degree, there is no debate about that. And sometimes formula or c-sections will be required. But CIO isn’t the only method of sleep training, and sleep training in itself is not evil. CIO might be evil, but you have to define what CIO means, and you simply can’t dismiss variations on the CIO/AP sleep training methods out-of-hand, because some may have a valid component.
One more thing: just as formula and c-sections have a life-saving aspect to them, when used as intended, sleep training can also achieve the same goal. No one can argue against the statement that good sleep habits are healthful and important. The difficulty comes when you lump all sleep training in the same category, just as if you were to look sideways at any woman who got a c-section, assuming she did so electively.
Your first analogy was right: sleep is a needful thing, and can and should only be achieved with love and gentleness. This analogy is wrong. Women are not tossing their babies in cribs in dark rooms to cry for several hours alone in droves. I would guess the majority of women are just trying to find a happy compromise between helping their children to fall asleep gently, and imposing a proper bed time routine. So in that respect, no, it’s nothing like using formula or having a c-section.
@Emily:
Long comment, long reply
1) I have seen many many women railroaded into doing CIO both IRL and on the attachment parenting message boards that I moderate. People are put under pressure by their spouses, colleagues, health professionals, parents, siblings, etc. They are told that if they do not use cry it out, their baby will never sleep properly.
2) There are many degrees of cry it out and there are many degrees of infant feeding and birth interventions. I think the analogy works quite well. Try this:
I bolded the one that is my choice on all 3 accounts…
3) My approach to sleep is that I create conditions that promote sleep, I do tell my kids when it is bedtime most nights (occasionally they can choose), but they are parented to sleep. They are not left to cry on their own. Not for 5 minutes, not for 2 hours.
“I have a strong, unapologetic opinion about the use of the cry it out method. That is my prerogative. To be frank, I would sooner choose formula and get an elective c-section than let my baby cry to sleep alone in a dark room.”
Amen.
I’ve had so many friends and family tell me that CIO is the only way to get a good sleeper.
It just makes my heart hurt and I can’t believe they think I am “soft” or I’m not “babywise” because I don’t believe CIO is effective and is somewhat cruel.
I have several friends that use the CIO method because they believe it makes their babies better sleepers. I think – oh wow, if someone left me in a dark room with no means for escape and I cried for several hours, I might just fall asleep too. And then I might not protest anymore, after several nights of this, because I’ve learned it’s futile and no one is coming for me anyway.
So they have babies that sleep through the night. However, they have toddlers/preschoolers that are awful sleepers later down the road. Is there a correlation? I don’t know, but it makes me wonder.
My kids feel safe and can sleep anywhere, anytime, anyhow. They don’t freak out when we’re away from home. The majority of my CIO friends have kids that won’t sleep away from home. Hmm . . . I wonder.
I think this summary of your views is very concise and speaks for many of us who read your blog. You are right in speaking out to all the unending cultural pressure that causes many of us to question our own internal beliefs about the raising of children. It can be frustrating when one is having a hard day (everyone has them, no matter the child-rearing technique) to be questioned on all sides. It is rewarding to read statements like these, kind of a shot in the arm, so to speak.
One other thing, why is it when a group of mothers get together and one mentions “that she had to have a c-section for (fill in the blank) medical condition” or “she just couldn’t breastfeed because ……..” , we all are supposed to feel sorry for her? Just once I would like to hear a mother say, “I was ripped off from having a safe, healthy birth because the system failed me. I am going to be better informed for the next time.”
I’m still offended by the rape comparison. Using CIO is in NO WAY comparable to the horror and violence of having sex forced on you. I understand your point you were trying to make, but found the analogy incredibly insensitive.
As for CIO, we don’t do it. It didn’t work for our family and we have co-slept on and off since my first child was born. However, I have friends who have never co-slept a day in their lives and have well-adjusted children that sleep just fine. I would never judge them for their choices, just as I hope they would never judge me for mine.
I sometimes get the impression that you think someone who does CIO or who doesn’t co-sleep is a bad mother. But it’s that not easy, being a good mother or a bad mother is not black and white. A woman can breastfeed, co-sleep, and wear her baby, but is she a good mother if she’s just going through the motions and never tells her child that she loves him? We’re an AP family, but that doesn’t mean that other non-AP families don’t love their kids as much because they choose to “disrespect” their children by using CIO or feeding formula. A mother’s love for her child is something that should never be questioned.
There’s a fine line between exploring different ways of parenting and different research, and trying to “educate” those who aren’t “doing it right.” I usually find your posts to be in the first category (and I’m looking forward to your opinions on Sandra Tsing Loh’s recent article on why marriage is obsolete, particularly her reference to co-sleeping as “lazy, undisciplined parenting”), but with your rape-CIO comparison, I think you crossed the line.
PhD – You said, “They are not left to cry on their own. Not for 5 minutes, not for 2 hours.”
This is exactly the type of polarizing attitude I am referring to. You must clearly not have any spirited children, or more than 2 or 3 kids, or have any close in age. Sometimes kids crying without you being able to personally soothe them is an inevitability.
And for single parents, parents of multiples, parents with difficult children, etc etc etc, this idea of never letting your children cry for any length of time without your personal attendance is unrealistic. These parents know this, and this extreme AP view of gentle parenting causes nothing but stress and conflict in their lives, trying to achieve what can’t be achieved.
Okay, I say it can’t be achieved, but it can be, if you want to sacrifice in other areas. Is never letting a child cry alone worth not allowing them the sleep they need to be healthy? My baby is one of those who would be awake in my arms all night long some nights, she doesn’t go to sleep easily, even with my help. Is never letting a child cry alone worth the destruction brought on by the other high-needs child who is left unattended while you deal with the one who is crying? I guess for some parents it is, but for some it is not.
This whole thing is just silly. A child crying alone for 5 minutes is NOT the worst thing in the world. They aren’t going to be scarred for life, it isn’t going to damage their psyche, and they won’t grow up to be insecure, codependent adults. Sometimes other things take priority, and not only is this healthy for YOU as a parent to determine which things need the immediate attention, but healthy for THEM to understand they can’t always be personally attended, and that sometimes they will have to fend for themselves for a moment while you are busy with other things/kids.
@Emily:
If one child does have to cry alone in my house it is with the assurance that I am on my way, i.e. “I’m changing the baby’s diaper, hang on a minute and I’ll be right there”. Those are situations that come up and we deal with them as they arise in the best way that we can. But I would never set my family a routine that included an assumption that my child would have to cry to sleep if he/she didn’t want to go to bed alone. I think there is always a way. I don’t think it is always easy. I do have a spirited child and my children are purposely 2.5 years apart because I chose not to get pregnant again until I felt that the spirited toddler was getting to the point where he might be able to handle it and even then I freaked out a bit, but we worked it out. As have many other families, as evidenced in my recent series of posts about adding another child in an AP family. I think that I can gently teach my kids that they can’t always be personally attended by teaching them to do things themselves and to fend for themselves without leaving them to cry.
I know not everyone can manage that. I know there are days when it is a major juggling act for me. There are days when I am not at my best.
I guess I just find it surprising when you criticize women that perhaps decide formula is easier for them for whatever reason
don’t manage exclusive breastfeedingby calling them lazy and asking them why they bothered to have kids in the first place, but then seem to use the same types of arguments to support leaving a child to cry that they use to support their need to use formula. Your words:“Newsflash: kids are inconvenient. They take time and sacrifice to do what’s best. That includes breastfeeding, spending time with them, cooking them proper food, teaching them, etc. If you can’t be bothered to provide even their basic needs, don’t have kids….All this blustering and debating about oppression by breastfeeding advocates is nothing more than an admission of guilt for choosing a less-than method of feeding your children. If you are confident about your parenting choices, then you have no need to defend them.”
I am one of those mothers whos child would have died without formula. No ifs ands or buts.
And yet no one cared to realize that and still to this day die hard lactivists look upon me as if I failed.
My kid has hardly if ever been sick. She has no food allergies. She has had one ear infection in her entire almost five year life.
I do what works for me. And I don’t offer advice unless I am asked or if I see another woman who had the same condition I had when I was pregnant crying in a corner because people are faulting her for being physically incapable of making milk for her baby.
I’ve screwed up a lot with my kid according to “expert standards” and “parenting books” and good old fashioned stereotypes.
But my kid is healthy. And happy. So all those other people can keep their opinions to themselves.
I did not take the lazy way out. And I hate that there are women who do because it makes the rest of us, the ones who formula was intended for, look bad.
(And here is where I insert the little gem that I judge women who quit breastfeeding because it was just too hard. I would have given anything to be able to do it. There you have it. I’ll never say it out loud again.)
Did I get off track? I feel like I got off track…
Amen, moosh. Amen. Me too. Very few….VERY FEW know the heartache of not being physically capable of feeding your child. Of doing everything in your power…following the advice of multiple doctors, nurses, and lactation consultants…..to no avail. To sob your heart out and feel like a failure because your breasts just won’t work. I do many things “right” by expert standards. But because my breasts failed me, I get lumped in with the lazy moms.
Then they find out I had two c/sections and there you have it…I’m one of “those moms”. Never mind the fact that my birthing center midwives kicked me out of their practice at 37 weeks when my son remained breech after multiple failed Webster’s Techniques, home version exercises, and an excruciatingly painful failed ECV. No doctor around would agree to a vaginal birth…so there’s one c/section. While seeking a VBAC friendly doctor the next time I found out I had a vertical incision with my first c/section. Again, no doctor would agree to a vaginal birth. So there’s c/section number 2.
To the original point……I agree with some previous commenters that this isn’t the greatest analogy. CIO is a CHOICE. Always. No way around it. C/sections and formula? NOT always a choice. It just irks me to “see” myself tossed in the same group as people who choose the CIO method, simply because I had belly births and broken boobs.
I already explained in my first comment why I think the two arguments are not analogous. I have also said on many occasions that that sentiment does not apply to women for whom breastfeeding is not possible. This sentiment is directed at those who argue that it doesn’t matter how you feed your child, or who look down on breastfeeding. Not cool to take my arguments out of context.
@Emily: And my comments were directed at those who argue that it doesn’t matter whether you leave your child to cry it out or not. I know what context you intended your arguments in and I thought I had presented it that way, but I edited my previous comment to clarify.
@Tiffany @moosh in indy While I don’t know the heartache first hand, I came close to knowing it, very close…every day for months I thought that was going to be me. I provide support to women that are struggling with breastfeeding. I also provide support to women that are struggling with sleep issues. I know that some women do turn to cry it out in complete and utter anguish because they just aren’t getting sleep otherwise and they are falling apart and maybe suffering from PPD too. I know that it doesn’t seem like a choice to them. But you are right that it is more of a choice than having a c-section or needing formula. There is no perfect analogy. But the point I wanted to make is that there are many many women that turn to c-sections, formula or cry it out that didn’t need to. And even if some did have to, it doesn’t make it an equal option. I think we still have to advocate for an educate about the best option, even if not everyone can achieve it.
@Kayris: I wish you’d left that comment on the other post. In any case, if you go back you will see that I edited it.
I have to say I admire you for tackling this. It’s complicated and polarizing and I think you’re doing a pretty good job of explaining your position. Perfection is impossible, of course, and analogies rarely hold up in all instances. But I understand what you’re trying to say.
I’ve made the same choices you have on this count. I know people who have made different choices for various reasons. As someone who’s faced criticism and judgment myself I try to avoid that at all costs, recognizing that we are all different families in different circumstances doing our best. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t feel free to share our feelings with others, though, and I’m glad that you do share yours so freely.
It is nearly impossible to find a perfect analogy. I certainly appreciate your attempts.
I have a spirited child and a more mellow one. CIO was never an option in my mind but was especially not an option with my spirited, colicky first because she had a heart condition. If I had done CIO, she would have died. For the record, I was hundreds of miles away from any relatives and my husband was deployed to Iraq.
So, I’m hear to say that yes, even if your child is very spirited, you can use gentle methods to teach your child to sleep.
I also like that you focus on the general issues, rather than criticizing any one mother.
Like you, I can certainly understand getting to the point that you *feel* like you have no other option. However, teaching sleep habits is possible even in a spirited child. It requires great resources of patience, but it is possible.
I understand how this, coupled with the belief that CIO is damaging, can be hurtful to parents who have chosen this path. However, I will not ignore all the scientific, cultural, historical, and instinctual evidence that gentler methods are the better path.
Here are the analogies I use:
CIO is like handing your 14 year old the keys to the car without lessons or tossing your 5 year old in the pool to teach him to swim. You do not expect a child to instantly do things that are not age-appropriate–even if some children can do these things at this age. You gradually introduce, model, instruct, and practice.
http://sususeriffic.blogspot.com/2009/06/sleep-cio-dueling-bloggers-and-more-yee.html
And did the CIO method show up after it became fashionable to have a nursery and the baby away from you?
It makes me nuts to have a tiny baby alone in a room..the hassle is on you then…and lonely for them.
I am happy to keep mine in the room with me for as long as it takes for feeding and sleep habits to settle down.
My daughter didn’t sleep for more than two hours at a time till she was almost three.
It WAS a nightmare….but we also knew we had to work through it and HELP her.
So I wore her a lot when she was wee and we just worked on making her feel secure and safe enough to sleep!
But don’t roll formula and cio together..I was a baby wearer with both mine and did formula….it was better than me being dead.
And if this baby doesn’t turn or I don’t feel safe or worry about HER being safe…this will be a c-section.
Using modern technology doesn’t make us all ‘mean’ or uninformed mums. I consider myself fully educated in all options out there.
@crunchy: I did say at the end that I would sooner choose formula and get an elective c-section than use cry it out. And I do recognize that both formula and c-sections are necessary for some women.
I know you probably have a post about this, but i can’t find it :/. I was wondering if you had a link to some alternatives to CIO, ways to go about comforting a baby other than just holding him, or rocking him to sleep. This is probably obvious to those of you who have experience not using CIO, but as a first time to be mom I could really use the help.
@Jordan: Yes, my post with gentle sleep tips is here: Gentle Baby and Toddler Sleep Tips. It also includes some book recommendations if you want to read more.
And I’m sure you’ve said it elsewhere, but what most people don’t realize is the medical definition of sleeping through the night is around 5 hours. NOT what we’re looking for — I’d love 7 straight, but now that my 4 kids are all sleeping that long, my bladder’s betraying me!
I absolutely agree that CIO is a choice that never has to be made, and I agree whether it’s 5 minutes or 2 hours when you COULD intervene and comfort that child in some way, it’s CIO, and it’s unfair to the child. And yes, you could say my 2 boys are spirited, high needs, whatever — I still wouldn’t leave them alone to cry in order to “teach” them to sleep to my convenience. In fact I’d be less likely to, as they would have gotten more and more worked up. Right now, I’m up every couple hours with my 20 month old. Is it hard, sure. But having done the same with his 4.5 year old brother, who now sleeps through most nights (though he’s known to visit us a few nights a week — this is not something we see as a “problem”), I know that it won’t last, and he will “learn to sleep” in his own good time. And know what? Because we have always parented them to sleep, bedtime is actually a pleasant experience!
Of course babies cry, and some even want to be put down rather than held (not mine, but I’ve heard of these kids that like a little space) but leaving them to cry alone when it’s clear they want/need a parent’s comfort is just wrong, and harmful IMHO It also seems to me like a lot more work than just responding to their needs, call me crazy! And I don’t buy that it’s ever for the child’s good, sorry — mine managed to be happy and healthy on the sleep they got, even if I would have preferred them to sleep for longer periods sooner, even if I was (am) a tired mommy!
A wise woman once told me she wants her kids to come to her when they are older — why on earth wouldn’t she listen to them as babies?
@Andrea: Beautifully said. Thank you.
Annie – I have to say THANK YOU for continuing to be so provocative. Your nomination for that category of blogging is so well-deserved. I do hope you will not water down your opinions – I find you to be so encouraging and refreshing. I am two c-section mama myself and have never once been offended by any of your opinions. Please do keep advocating the best way in the parenting topics about which you are passionate!
Also, when I hear people saying training infants to sleep at any cost serves to provide them with health and well-being, I have to wonder if they know about research which demonstrates the alarming long-term effects of panic and stress on the infant brain:
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handout2.asp
(oh, I know it’s from Dr. Sears. So sue me. The research he sites is still valid.)
I also have a post on why we don’t do cry it out that references some of the scientific studies: Cry it out (CIO): 10 reasons why it is not for us. It has been almost a year since I wrote it and it has over 10,000 page views!
I like this analogy. I totally agree that we should not start to think that crying it out is just as good as using gentle methods to get children to sleep. But I would also argue that just as we need to be sensitive to those who use formula or get a c-section because they feel they have no choice, a little sensitivity is in order for those who feel they have no choice but to let their baby cry it out.
My own experience was that after 19 months of meeting my son’s intense nighttime needs, my sanity and my marriage were at risk from what waking up 8-10 times per night, sometimes for over an hour, was doing to me. We had already read all the books and tried all the gentle tricks. In desperation, we let our son cry it out.
Now you may well argue that we could have done something else, but I still maintain that people in our position deserve some sympathy. We got NONE. Most of the world thought we were nuts for meeting our son’s needs for so long, and the few people who had stood by us for the last 19 months now basically thought we were child abusers. If someone struggles with nursing for many months and then gives up, or goes through days of grueling labor before finally submitting to interventions, it takes a pretty heartless person to attack their decision. But for crying it out, people are so hard core that they are not willing to give exhausted parents credit for the huge effort they do put in.
@Channa: Thank you for your comment and for telling your story.
I’m no fan of crying it out either. None of my kids have started out as “good sleepers,” taking 6 or more months to start sleeping that magic 5 hour stretch without waking up. I always tell my sister how I envy her with kids who started doing that naturally at about 2 months.
I do have a friend who hired a sleep trainer to get her son to sleep. She said he was literally up every 45 minutes and she couldn’t deal with it anymore. She’s a case where I get being paranoid, as her son has a few developmental problems and occasional seizures.
But for your average baby? No!
My babies have always gotten me up at need, sometimes to the aggravation of my husband, who wants me to push a bit harder. I just don’t see the need. They do sleep well eventually.
I like a fighting spirit in a woman, but if this wasn’t judgmental… It must be nice to know things and assume everybody else is simply choosing to ignore the vast information available out there.
Most of the people I know would make better decisions if they had infinite amounts of time and resources, but instead, they go to their doctor and ask, and the doctor thinks old-fashioned or otherwise-motivated thoughts and presents them as good advice. Most people don’t question the doctor, because the doctor has had years of study and experience, so how could they argue? Besides, what’s the doctor for anyway?
The best thing you can do (and are doing very well) is reach as many people as you can and educate them, but don’t be angry at them, because then you might not be as accessible to those who need to learn, even if you have an echo of 40 comments from fans as soon as you publish a post.
Was that too blunt? If so, my apologies. I meant well.
@Family Matters: No, that is a fair point. But I do question whether there is any way at all to get through to some people, nice or not so nice. I do get so frustrated on some issue that I want to scream from the rooftops sometimes. With regards to doctors, that is one of my pet peeves. Both that doctors feel the need to give parenting advice rather than just medical advice and that frequently the doctor is just plain wrong. With regards to breastfeeding, for example, most doctors have only a few hours of training on it and yet they declare themselves experts.
To say that C-section is not equal to vaginal birth is a lot of arrogant BS. This “I-am-better-than-you” attitude from “natural” moms lands so many women in depression and brings them angst that is entirely unnecessary. My daughter was cross-breach. Should I have risked her life and mine just to prove that I can give a natural birth? Thank you – that’s why medicine made progress and women and children don’t die in birth. Oh, and babies also don’t die from starvation, while their mothers are trying to get a hang of breastfeeding, which is admittedly doesn’t come natural to many of us. I didn’t have to supplement with formula, but for a couple of weeks I thought that my nipples will be chewed off completely before I learn how to do it properly.
@Natalie:
No, it is not a lot of arrogant BS. C-sections carry a lot of risks that vaginal births don’t. Yes, they can be lifesavers in some circumstances and I said that in my post at least 3 times. But, a lot of people end up with c-sections that could have been avoided. I can’t say whether that is true for your c-section or not, but I know that it is true for many c-sections. A lot of doctors do not allow VBACs at all, resulting in a lot of unnecessary c-sections. Doctors in Canada used to automatically do a c-section for a breech birth, but the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada just came out with new guidelines for vaginal delivery of breech presentation.
Also, some babies do die of starvation because their mothers don’t seek help when breastfeeding isn’t working out.
This is not an “I’m better than you” post. It is a post raising and discussing the circumstances that result in higher than necessary use of c-sections, formula and cry it out. If it makes you feel better to shoot the messenger, go ahead. But I’d rather focus on what can be done to change the circumstances so that fewer women need c-sections, formula or CIO.
Great post! Your in my head all the time, right?
We don’t believe in CIO, never have and never will. I see CIO as easy and lazy parenting. It’s a child! Seriously, if he/she is crying it’s for a reason.
Honestly, we are responsible for what happens in our life. Same with birth and deciding to breast/bottle feed and a vaginal birth vs/c-section
We are ultimately responsible. We need to stop taking what the “experts” say as Gospel.
These are our children! They have real feelings and needs just like adults do.
“No, it is not a lot of arrogant BS. C-sections carry a lot of risks that vaginal births don’t.”
Yes, and they’re finding out even more of these risks all the time. Check this recent article out of some significant long-term effects:
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1712969/csection_births_cause_genetic_changes_that_could_increase_odds_for/
Are they life-saving in some situations? Do I even need to answer that? Of course they are. But I will never get how some feel that because they are lifesaving in some situations, they therefore are equal choices in all situations. It just defies all reason and logic.
The best analogy I’ve heard to illustrate this point: You’re on the second floor of a burning building. Fire completely blocks the door of the room you’re in. Your only chance of surviving is by jumping out the window, despite risk of some injury. Of course you’re going to jump. Now – take the fire out of the picture. The house is perfectly fine. Is jumping out the window still an equal choice to going down the stairs and walking out the door?
I’ll take the analogy a step further (since we’re all about analogies here) and maintain that, often enough, unnecessary medical intervention is often what set the house ablaze in the first place. Shouldn’t we focus on not setting the house on fire in the first place?
I’ve been talking to my Nana about her mother aka Great Nana.
Nana is one of 16.
She was telling me of her early family life and she remembers there was always at least 2 babies in the bed with Mum and Dad. Always one child over the shoulder or at the breast. Life was hard but you didn’t have to loose your humanness…and we complain that its hard with two or three kids.
Another thing is we always seem to fall to CIO as our last resort…we never seem to fall to Parenting to Sleep…well maybe I’m just odd
Thanks for a great post and I support your great words
Love
m
I hate that you have to justify your posts here – it’s your blog, after all! I was under the impression, before having kids, that I would never breastfeed. I didn’t think I would like it. But I said I’d try it out. And I did, and it worked like magic. Why? Because it is the most natural thing in the world. It’s not hard. I have nothing against people who formula feed – it is their choice – but breastfeeding is natural and the best thing for the baby, especially those first 6 weeks. And you already know how I feel about cry it out!
I’m so thrilled that a friend of mine sent me your way, and to come here and see a great CIO debate, with so many supporters AGAINST it.
Last year I got into a HUGE debate with readers of sundrymourning.com (who has a huge following), after being misrepresented by her- lots and lots and lots of very insulting comments on my anti-CIO posts.
Anyway, if you’re interested in reading them, please do!
http://typealice.com/blog/2008/08/06/crying-it-out/
http://typealice.com/blog/2008/08/26/wal-mart-moms-r/
http://typealice.com/blog/2008/09/19/another-cio-discussion/
http://typealice.com/blog/2008/10/25/money-where-my-mouth-is/
http://typealice.com/blog/2008/10/27/pot-calling-the-kettle-black/
http://typealice.com/blog/2008/10/29/a-difference-of-opinion/
This post has been on my mind as a woman who’s had 4 c-sections. It was, in part, what motivated me to write a blog post ‘My Baby, My C-Sections. Random Ramblings about Babies, Growing Up and Letting Go.’ http://bit.ly/37Qt6x (you’ll also see Annie’s reply and then my reply to that!).
The analogy may not be perfect (what analogy is?), but I get the point that is being made and I couldn’t agree more.
P.S. @Anne — I love the burning building analogy! Very well put.
hmmm. contentious subject!
i think we can all agree that everyone and every situation is unique. i have 3 darling children and each are so very different, and were brought into the world in similarly unique ways. but all arrived via c-sections for reasons that were necessary. i must admit i have never once felt bad about bringing them into the world this way, i am surprised so many people do. at the end of the day a healthy baby is the most we can hope for. and believe me i’ve seen my fair share of very sick babies.
as for breastfeeding. i did it for 4 years with my first 2 babies but the last one is formula fed for many reasons that i’ll leave to the imagination. again it’s all about the healthy baby. whatever works for mother and child.
sleeping through the night? so over rated!! the precious moments in the late late night with a little one should be cherished if at all possible, not scorned. i know it’s hard. i haven’t had a night sleep in over 5 years. but letting them cry it out — never an option. too sad.
@phd in parenting… I am not sure I understood your “=” post very well..so I will go with my interpretation… I guess I think that not all of those are “=” I did everything I could to try to to have a natural vaginal delivery (hypnobirthing, midwives, doula, birth plan, exercise) and ended up at 42 weeks, no labor, no dialation, low amniotic fluid, frank breech and I had a fibroid, – so I ended up a C-section… however I don’t think I fit into any of your equations- this is mine- C-section=extended, exclusive breastfeeding (going on 21 months and counting) = absolutely no CIO ( and I don’t have a baby that sleeps well) = AP If what you meant is that one choice leads to another – kind of a bundle of decisions- I would not characterize it that way.. as you mentioned in a previous post you know parents who do EBF and give their babies processed food, and parents who formula feed who have a home cooked meal on the table every night… but again I am not sure if I understood what you were trying to say…My point is that although I question whether I needed the C-section or not, having it does not necessarily say anything else about any other decisions I may make as a parent.. I also want to say that as always you have written a great post and are as provocative as ever..
@emi
I don’t think that’s what she meant at all. She was setting up an analogy to show that in each of these cases there is an “ideal” and then there are choices that approach the ideal and then there are choices that someone who believes in AP would wish to avoid.
I agree the analogy breaks down because there are definitely people who HAVE to have c-sections (it is likely the mom or the baby would die otherwise) whereas I do not believe anyone HAS to leave their baby to CIO.
However, I don’t think “=” meant “leads to” or “morally equivalent. I took it as meaning “Gala Apples are to Red Delicious Apples as Mandarin Oranges are to Valencia Oranges” or “Walking is to Running as Trotting is to Galloping.”
@ Candace.. Thanks for the clarification
@Emi: Sorry, I somehow missed your comment the first time! Thank you to Candace for clarifying. When I did the “=” in the comment, I didn’t include medically necessary unavoidable emergency c-section and medically unavoidable use of formula due to medical condition of the mother because *I* don’t think there is an equivalent to those two as it relates to cry it out. Now there may be some mothers (and some have commented on this post or other posts of mine on CIO) that feel that CIO was absolutely the only option that they had to get their child to sleep, so maybe in their mind their use of CIO is equivalent to medically necessary c-section or medically necessary use of formula. I’m not sure.
What I was trying to say is that c-sections, formula and CIO are all less than ideal solutions and the use of them in our society is much higher than it needs to be. Also, the number of people that feel that they had to have a c-section, had to use formula or had to use CIO is higher than reality. Finally, there are societal pressures and conditions that result in the use of these three things being higher than they should be and we should be doing something about that.
This is a reply to comment 37, above.
Annie, this has been pointed out to you many times and I know you’re well aware of it: The studies you’re referencing in that post are not about sleep training. They have nothing to do with sleep training. Most of them are about children who suffer regular neglect during childhood (see http://mainstreamparenting.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/of-sources-and-straw-houses-the-annotated-dr-sears-handout-on-cio/, and a couple of them are looking at whether neurological damage causes excess crying, not the other way round, and are being mis-cited by you to reverse cause and effect (see http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/parenting/archive/2009/06/30/cry-it-out-method-sleep-ferber.aspx).
I know you believe that children left crying for short periods of time might suffer the same side-effects as children suffering childhoods of neglect. You are fully entitled to hold that opinion and to express it. What I damn well don’t think you are entitled to do is to mislead people about the evidence. You specifically state, at the beginning of that post, that you’re going to talk about Ferberisation. You then cite evidence that isn’t remotely about Ferberisation. You do not explain the discrepancy between what the evidence says and what you’re trying to claim at any point in the post. You are stating that your claims are backed up by evidence, when they’re not.
If you want an analogy, here’s one: There are pro-lifers who post terrifying articles, complete with detailed references, on the scary horrible risks of abortion. They say they’re only doing this because they want women to be fully informed of the risks they’re taking. Except, somehow, this supposed commitment to informing women fully never extends to telling women that the information they’re being given is based on abortion techniques that were in use thirty years ago and have long since been superseded, or on statistics from illegal abortions, or that the risks they’re being told about are actually much lower with abortion than they would be with continuing the pregnancy. Because, for the pro-lifers who do that, it isn’t really about fully informing women. It’s about trying to scare them out of abortions. If misrepresenting the research will do that, then that’s what they do. That’s what you’re doing with your supposed ‘research’ on sleep training.
This, by the way, is why I couldn’t vote for your blog. I could no more vote for your blog than you could vote for Hannah Rosen’s breastfeeding article as ‘Most Provocative’, even though provocative it certainly was. Sure, you’re entitled to hold different opinions from me and to argue for those opinions. But I do not believe it is OK for you to try to *deceive* people into following your opinions. I can’t vote for someone who will so blatantly misuse evidence to try to scare others into doing things her way.
@Sarah V.:
As you know, I also wrote a follow-up post addressing those concerns, called Cry it Out: Is it helpful or harmful and linked to it from the original post. I have now added a revised note at the bottom to put that link in context.
There is evidence about the relative safety of abortion 30 years ago compared with today. There is also continued research and new studies coming out all the time on the various effects of abortion (I just saw one yesterday on the mental health effects of having an abortion versus giving up a baby for adoption). On crying it out, as you are aware, most of the research seems to focus on whether it “worked” and maybe in some cases what the effect of CIO if any on the mood/disposition of the mother/baby in the time immediately following the use of the technique. None of them look at the long term psychological and physiological effects of it.
That note doesn’t really cover it, though, does it? *None* of your studies are about anything remotely in the same league as Ferberisation, *despite the fact that you specify at the beginning of your post that you are talking about Ferberisation*. The honest thing to do would be to delete your false claim to be talking about Ferberisation, and instead state that you’re talking about situations where children are regularly left screaming, and that you’re concerned that there is inadequate research on the more common forms of sleep training where children are only left alone for much shorter periods of time. But, instead, you’re deliberately misleading parents into thinking that the research you cite *is* about those forms of sleep training.
And absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence. Even if we didn’t have studies showing the safety of legal abortion, that still wouldn’t make it valid to talk about studies showing the dangers of illegal abortion in such a way as to trick women into believing that these were studies into the risks of legal abortion.
@Sarah V.: I know that Ferber advocates graduated extinction. I also know that not everyone knows that and that often people searching on the term “Ferber” are searching for general cry it out stuff. I am trying to ensure that people that are considering letting their baby cry to sleep, regardless of what search term they use, will end up on my post. If and when you show me evidence that X number of minutes of controlled crying is safe and has no negative consequences, then maybe I will consider changing my post. Until then, it stays as is. Whether you check on the baby every X minutes or not, you are not responding to their emotional needs. Again, you are welcome to come to a different conclusion. This is my blog and I don’t feel that I am misrepresenting anything. I am interpreting what information is available in the absence of anything more concrete.
Annie, you’re a smart and articulate woman. I don’t actually believe for a nanosecond that you can’t figure out a way to introduce the word ‘Ferberisation’ into your post that isn’t as part of a specific claim that Ferberisation is what you’re going to talk about. Nor do I believe that you aren’t perfectly capable of clarifying for your readers that lack of absolute proof that a practice is harmless is not actually the same as proof that it’s harmful.
You’ve now added a statement at the end of the post that ‘not all’ of the research mentioned is into CIO. How many people do you think interpret the statement ‘not all’ as meaning ‘none’? People interpret it as meaning ‘some’. You’ve made it sound to anyone who reads that post as though some of the research you cite *is* into Ferberisation. Yes, that is misleading. You have then gone on to state that you believe excessive crying is excessive crying whether it happens at night or not – which makes it sound as though the only issue is one of timing, not of duration or frequency of the crying. Again, that’s misleading. You are not being open with people about the gaping flaws in the way you’re interpreting the research. Annie, if this was a topic on which you hadn’t already made your mind up and on which you really did want to give people as unbiased a view as possible, there is absolutely no way you would have written that post in the way you have.
Annie – I disagree with the statement that letting a child cry = not responding to their emotional needs. What if the baby is crying from being overly tired? What if their need for rest outweighs their *desire* to be with mommy? I say desire, because while children do need their mommies, as they get older that need is less an imperative and more a subjective. Also, it is proven that adequate sleep is a fundamental human need. Not a want, a need. I submit that by training your child (in a loving way) to have appropriate and sufficient sleep habits IS responding to their emotional needs!
If the goal of AP is to learn to recognize what your child is trying to communicate to you, and trying to respect what she is asking in the gentlest way possible, then I think it is perfectly acceptable for an AP mother to do her best to lovingly and gently parent her baby to sleep, and that includes letting the baby cry for a few minutes if what she determines is that the child is desperately asking to sleep.
I’m also going to back Sarah V. up with this business about the studies. Allowing a child to fuss for 5 minutes is NOT the same as neglect, and sleep “training” is not heinous or evil by definition. I also don’t buy you claiming that minimal sleep training done in a gentle parenting fashion might have negative consequences just because it hasn’t yet been proven that there aren’t any. You re-tweeted a quote last week, saying something to the effect that just because you can’t prove something does not exist is not grounds to assume that it does. So which is it?
@Emily: I cannot prove that X minutes of crying is harmful. That is true. I don’t assume that it is definitely harmful. I assume that it can be harmful. I am taking a precautionary approach. Also, even if it wasn’t harmful, it is not congruent with the type of relationship I want to have with my children because I don’t think it is respectful. I am not denying my child sleep when she is tired. I am parenting her to sleep.
You certainly have the right to feel differently.
But what I am curious about (and I know I’ve asked Sarah V. this before and didn’t get a straight response) is how young is to young and how long is too long? At what age do you think it is okay to let a child cry to sleep alone? You’ve said crying for 5 minutes is not the end of the world, but how long is too long? If your child cried for 10 minutes, is that okay? If your child cried for 20 minutes, is that still okay? What about 30? What about 60? What about 90? How about 120 minutes? Where is that magical line in the sand between not okay and okay?
I ask because I know people that have said they tried it and their baby got so distressed that she couldn’t sleep. Or their baby got so stressed that he vomited. Some people say that is normal, just part of the sleep training, just clean it up and leave the room again (oh and while you are here share your favourite puke story). I know people that have left their baby to cry for 30 to 60 minutes every night.
So what is the limit?
For me, it is that I don’t leave my child to cry to sleep alone.
What is it for you?
The reason I didn’t give what you call a ‘straight response’ to your question was because I don’t believe that the ‘magical line’ you’re asking me for exists. I don’t think there is a magical point at which children flip over from being absolutely fine with being left to cry to suffering devastating emotional damage, and I certainly don’t believe that, if such a line existed for any given child, that would mean that the identical line would exist for a different child.
I have a daughter who sometimes absolutely HAS to be left crying to get to sleep, because absolutely any way of trying to put her to sleep gently will just keep her awake, which would not be fair to her. If I try going in to her after five minutes then it just wakes her up and upsets her more. She needs to be left completely alone until she gets to sleep, which almost always takes less than ten minutes. I believe there are children out there who would suffer meltdown if they were left for that long and who need exactly the gentle easing into sleep that would, if tried with my daughter, eventually lead to her suffering severe sleep deprivation due to keeping her awake for hours. I believe there are plenty of children who would be absolutely fine with either approach. I believe that there is absolutely no such thing as a one-size-fits-all solution for all children and all families – not any form of sleep training, not co-sleeping, not your never-leave-children-to-cry-for-any-length-of-time limit, not *any* dogma.
If what you actually want to know is what my basis is for making decisions when it comes to my own children, then the answer is that I aim for the minimum amount of crying alone that’s feasible, while recognising that that isn’t always going to be zero without doing more harm than good. Thus, with both children I spent a lot of time trying gentle methods first, and, when it was very clear after very repeated attempts that those weren’t working, I left them for only a few minutes at a time. I don’t recall ever needing to leave my son for more than five minutes. With my daughter, as I said, I have to leave her for longer; it’s almost always been less than ten minutes. I now try to pay more attention to the sound of her cry and my instincts than to the exact number of minutes on the clock. If I’m ever in doubt as to whether there might be something more going on than her usual need to cry for a bit, I go in and check. (Once in a blue moon this does pick up a genuine problem that needs dealing with. Far more often, it just interrupts her going-to-sleep process again and upsets her more than just leaving her alone.)
And, with regard to the parenting children to sleep vs. denying them sleep comment: you’ve had two children who *do* go to sleep with gentle methods, so, no, when you parent them to sleep, that isn’t denying them sleep when they’re tired. But if you tried the same thing with my daughter, it would be. That would be the choice you’d be faced with. I think your analogy above is actually more accurate than you want to admit. Just as formula is occasionally necessary because the alternative for that particular baby is starvation, just as C-sections are occasionally necessary because the alternative for that particular baby is brain damage or death, so leaving a baby to cry is occasionally necessary because the alternative for that particular baby is being kept awake to the point of suffering sleep deprivation. I totally agree with you that there are a lot of cases where CIO methods could be avoided. I do not agree with you that there are no cases where they could be avoided, because my own personal experience and that of others has taught me that that is simply not the case.
Annie – I don’t do any sort of sleep training or scheduling before 6 months, and it depends on the kid before 12 months. My toddler, she was going to sleep on her own before 9 months old, at her own request! My baby, who is 1 year this week, I just started letting her fuss about a month or two ago. She is super-attached, and she almost never leaves my side during the day. She won’t even go to dad! I wear her and nurse on demand, and when it comes time for bed, we do a routine, she gets nursed, rocked, walked, and sung to on occasion. Then I lay her down. Half the time, she rolls over and goes straight to sleep. If she starts crying when I leave the room, I’ll listen for a few minutes. If she is screaming, or the crying escalates to sounding desperate, I go right back and get her. If her crying sounds tired, fussy, or just “I don’t want to go to bed” sounding, I will let her cry for 5-10 minutes. I never go longer than 10 minutes. She is asleep in 2-3 minutes 99% of the time. Whenever she cries any longer than 5-10 minutes, it is usually something like a poopy diaper, or teething, or feeling sick, or something like that. And in the case of teething or being sick, I usually have her co-sleep with me anyway for part or all of the time.
I also did not want her to ever cry alone, but she would never go to sleep. I would do the whole parenting thing every night for an hour or two, and she would just not fall asleep. I would lay down with her, nurse her, rock her, sing to her, the works, and every time I got up or laid her down, she would start crying. She co-slept with us then as well, and even then, would not fall asleep before 11-12 every night. Well, I had to get up early with the toddler and the teen, and between that, and waking frequently to nurse, I was running ragged, so I decided something had to be done. Also, the toddler is pretty high-needs, so I often end up having to run back and forth to get her squared away in bed at night, and with my husband working nights, it’s only me and the two babies, so I often just can’t do one-on-one with either child for very long, unless it’s late at night with the baby.
I struggled a lot with the whole issue, because I was afraid if she cried for even 5 minutes it would damage her psyche. But eventually I realized that my toddler cries a LOT longer than 5 minutes every day, with the tantrums and general sensitivity, and it hasn’t killed her yet. I mean, that’s what you do with kids during the day, isn’t it? If they are angry or frustrated, you do what you can to help them through it, but sometimes you just have to let them work through it on their own time. I don’t think night time is any different. So one night, I was at the end of my rope, and I laid her in the crib and told her she would just have to work it out while I cooled off. Less than 30 minutes later, she was fast asleep. Furthermore, sleeping in her crib, she slept the whole night without waking or nursing.
After that, I made a regular bed time, and I worked it back from 10-11 to 7-8 over a few weeks, since she had been used to going to bed late. We made a routine, and I do the same stuff I have always done – rocking, singing, nursing, etc. The only difference is, now I tell her when it’s time for bed, not the other way around. It works beautifully, we all get sleep now, and she is still every bit as attached as she was before. I never leave her to CIO, and now she has a regular bed time, same as the toddler, I get some “me” time, and we all wake up first thing rested and ready for another day. None of us seem to be suffering.
@Emily
A few thoughts on your response (not your method).
I do not believe you can argue that CIO is congruent with AP because a parent believes it is respecting the child’s needs. If AP is everything, it is nothing. There are key elements in AP that argue against leaving a child alone to cry. That does not mean that every AP parent has to follow every aspect of AP every second of the day, but I do not think that CIO fits into the AP paradigm, no matter which way we stretch it.
And yes, sleep is a need. But it does not follow that CIO is necessarily the only, the best, or even a good method of ensuring that sleep.
While I am sure some percentage of the population suffers from rare disorders, just as a small percentage of people need c-sections or formula, most babies will sleep. They may not sleep when we want them to sleep but they will sleep. And for those who do have rare sleep disorders, I do not believe CIO would likely work anyway.
The toddler is very different. First, I do not believe that it is crying that harms a bond — I believe that it is a feeling of abandonment. When a toddler cries out of frustration, you can explain that mommy loves you and when you calm down, we can talk about what is upsetting you. The toddler intellectually knows you are there (even if you are in the next room) and you are modeling how to deal with frustration (step back, calm down, then deal with it).
An infant is designed to want to stay close to its sole source of warmth, food, protection, and love. An infant is unaware that we have locks to keep out intruders, thermostats to regulate temperature, monitors to listen to his noises, etc.
Until he understands those things, all he knows is that he wants his parents and they are not there.
When a baby cries in a room alone and then eventually falls asleep, I do not believe he is learning to self-soothe, I believe he is giving up.
Now, I do not believe that you run to your baby at every peep. Babies make noises in their sleep and some easy tempered babies may even wake, play, and then fall back to sleep. However, I do believe if a baby is awake and crying, then you go to him. That’s my personal belief.
@Emily: Thank you for answering my question and sharing your approach.
@Candace: Standing ovation. I *love* that comment. Very well said.
Candace – I’m not arguing CIO is congruent with AP. What I am describing is NOT CIO. Letting a child cry when they are fussing and leaving a child to cry until they pass out from frustration are two different things! That is exactly what those of us who are arguing about are trying to say. Why are you guys not getting that?
When my baby cries when I put her in bed, she is crying because she wants to be with me. Of course she is, because babies want to be with their mothers 24-7. She also wants to nurse 24-7, but I can’t go around topless all day long. She also wants me to carry her everywhere I go (which I do most of the day), but sometimes I let her cry for 2 minutes so I can pee in peace.
But at night, she is not “giving up” when she falls asleep. I roll my eyes at that suggestion. She’s not “self-soothing” either. She is just crying because she doesn’t want to go to bed and be away from me, and she doesn’t understand that she is tired. That is a normal kid reaction. And after 1 or 2 minutes of protesting, she just falls asleep because she is tired. There is nothing sinister or deep-psychology about it. If she really desperately needs something more than that, she will let me know, and I will go get her! But when she is just plain tired, all she needs is to lay down for a bit, and she will go right to sleep. I see nothing torturous about that.
@Emily: You obviously know your child and her cries better than anyone. I know my child and her cries and know that I would not be listening to what she is telling me if I let her cry for 5 minutes.
@Emily
My VERY FIRST, standalone sentence was:
“A few thoughts on your response (not your method).”
I wrote a similar post about “crying it out” several weeks ago and wanted to share the link: http://metropolitanmama.net/2009/06/how-to-get-your-baby-to-sleep-through-the-night-part-i/.
I agree that it is best to “use gentle methods to get a baby to sleep.”
Thank you also for honestly and respectfully “telling it like it is” about formula and c-sections. I think this post will be of help to many moms and moms-to-be.
Hello, just found you blog, and love it even though I’m not completely in your camp. I’m not ashamed of having done some sleep training with my second child. (he didn’t cry for 2 hours though). I didn’t believe in it with my first, who was a good sleeper for the most part anyway. I became less judgemental with my second. I’m not sure if you are a mum who works outside the home, but for me, the need to be alert at work during the day and having the demands of two kids at home, and providing 100% of the babys milk by nursing and pumping while working meant that I found myself in a place, mentally, where I had to help my son sleep for longer than an hour at a time at age 8 months. I used mainly gentle solutions, but ultimately some crying was involved. Another motivator for me was a dear friend, a firm believer in attachment theory, whose kids, aged 6 and 4, still do not sleep through the night, usually sleep in their parents bed, and cannot go to sleep alone, one parent has to sit with them and rock them until they fall asleep . She is fine with this, and her kids are lovely (though they seem tired to me) but I see her life and wonder how she survives (She works too), and this motivated me to get my son to sleep. Maybe her kids will be president and mine serial killers, but I somehow think we’ll all turn out OK. Thanks for the perspective.
@geekymummy:
Yes, I do work outside the home. There have been times when I was tired. More so with my son than with my daughter, because he was a worse sleeper than she is. But neither of them were good at sleeping long stretches on their own as babies. That very quickly converted us into a co-sleeping family. I wrote a while back that I don’t even know if my daughter sleeps through the night most nights because I can wake, nurse her and go back to sleep without even fully waking.
In your story about your friend, I think the key part there is “she is fine with this”. If she wasn’t fine with it, there would be ways to change it without having to leave her kids to cry it out. We have plenty of friends that were able to gently move from lying down with their kids every night to getting them to go to sleep on their own. It takes patience though and a lot of work. For some parents, it is easier to just keep lying down with them. Some enjoy that special time with their kids.
You are certainly entitled to use whichever approach you think works best for your children and your family. But I don’t think that it has to be as polarized as always being exhausted or resorting to cry it out.
So I have a 26 month old that has never been a good sleeper. My husband and I have tried CIO and never stuck to it because it seemed to cruel. We also tried co-sleeping but she did not like that either. Now I am so sleep deprived because she can not sleep through the night. She wakes up and is up for several hours through the night. Some nights asking for food and drink and some just to play. Now I am at a loss. She is tired and not able to cope with little things during the day and I can tell she is suffering. I am not able to concentrate and it is affecting my parenting. I do not think I could handle CIO, but I do not know what else to do. Help!
@Michele: Have you seen my gentle sleep tips? Also, you might find my post answering a user questions about a toddler that was waking up at night and wanting to go outside and play useful too: Night Owls.
We agree in many areas of parenting, but I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.
I was plenty well informed when we made the choice to sleep train our two oldest sons. (Name a major sleep book — I’ve either read it or know of it. I even contributed to Ann Douglas’s one!) I didn’t have unrealistic expectations about sleeping through the night. The idea came not from my family doctor, but from my knowledge of my kids and my family and what seemed like about 600 hours of research — including asking our ped’s opinion. I had plenty of support.
I made an informed choice, and to be honest, before I had kids I would have never imagined that sleep training was a choice I’d make. But at that time, in our circumstances, that’s what I did. I defend it vociferously only because I feel awful for the moms who feel like making the same choice but are afraid they’ll be judged as bad parents if they do. My kids were old enough (10 months), I had a plan in mind, I set a reasonable goal, I made sure my babies were safe and that the stress would not be too much on anyone, and we did it. And, best of all, it worked. I don’t think sleep training is any more ‘cruel’ than not indulging in a toddler’s every whim. Sometimes, it’s my job as a mom to know best even if it means taking a hard line. And I’m pretty sure it was harder on me than it was on them.
I don’t advocate sleep training for very young babies, and I haven’t chosen to go that route with my youngest because I know what’s best for my family and right now that’s not it. If I had another couple of hours, I might just dispute what you’ve said above about c-sections and formula feeding, too — I think you’re oversimplifying complex arguments and are being too quick to judge on these issues.
@DaniGirl
I don’t know what you mean by sleep training exactly but I take that term to mean “graduated extinction” or responding to cries at ever increasing intervals, a “middle ground” between responding to all cries of distress and “Crying it Out”.
I think that the problem with comparing sleep training a 10 month old to providing loving structure/discipline to a toddler is that first a toddler is old enough to grasp basic concepts. Second, you are there with your toddler when you are denying him what he wants. With sleep training a baby, the baby does not know that you are downstairs, listening, and available should he become truly upset. If a baby is old enough to understand that you are there should he really need you, then it is not cruel. However, if a baby does not know that you are available…and I don’t think a 10 month old understands that concept if you are not in the room…then I do think it is cruel to the baby.
At the same time, I understand how a loving parent may choose that option, so I am trying not to be judgmental. However, all my research shows that babies are meant to be held and comforted and reassured at that stage of life.
@Sarah V
I do not mean to be dramatic, but I had a “high need,” intense, colicky daughter. I had already planned to follow most of the AP principles but when she was born, we found she had a heart condition. Leaving her to cry would have resulted in her turning blue and requiring emergency surgery (instead of the planned surgery she eventually had) and possibly dying. So, it literally could have killed my daughter to leave her to cry it out.
Please believe me when I say that if you have to find a way to use gentle methods to get a child to sleep, you find a way. Even the extremely intense ones who just “won’t” go to sleep.
To assume that everyone who does not CIO must have a more easy going child is to minimize their experience.
Candace: I don’t assume that everyone who does not CIO must have a more easy-going child. I do, however, assume that if someone assures me that they aren’t depriving their child of sleep by using gentle methods to put her to sleep, then they *do* have a child who falls asleep with gentle methods. I have a child who stays awake with gentle methods. Given that there are limits on how long it is physically possible for anyone to stay awake, I have no doubt that if I’d stuck with using gentle methods on my daughter forever then she would *eventually* have gone to sleep. However, she has shown herself capable of staying awake for literally hours on end when I try to put her to sleep by gentle methods, and I do not think it appropriate to put her through that sort of sleep deprivation on a long-term basis. Sure, she’d get *some* sleep – just not the amount that we all need in order to be happy rather than cranky. I don’t see why keeping my daughter awake for hours every night when she needs sleep should be seen as better parenting than leaving her to cry for a few minutes. You and Annie are welcome to disagree with me about that choice, but what I don’t like is that so many people don’t even seem to acknowledge that there are some cases where that’s the choice that exists.
There are times when a child might cry more with a parent there. But my understanding/belief is that it isn’t crying that is harmful to a child in some way–but rather what *I* see as a feeling of abandonment. Therefore, my goal with sleep (or parenting in general) is not to reduce crying for my children but to send the message that I (and my husband) are there for them and will help them through whatever challenges they face in an age-appropriate way.
I do not doubt that using gentle methods consistently is a difficult and sometimes longer route than some form of CIO–but that does not mean it would not have eventually resulted in sleep. Obviously neither of us can *prove* this in any individual case. All I can say is that it took a long time for my to use gentle methods and they eventually worked. You can believe that they never would have worked with your child, but I do believe you would have found a way if it were necessary and it would have (eventually) worked.
Just to clarify…I mean consistent, good sleep of an appropriate length.
Candace: I don’t think crying is automatically harmful for a child, no. But I do think that if doing something a particular way is causing my child to cry more, then I should be thinking carefully about why I’m doing it that way and whether there’s any good reason for not doing it in a way that causes them less overall distress.
I also send my children the message that I’m there for them to help them. However, I do think that part of my responsibility is to accept that sometimes they don’t want my help and need to work something out for themselves. Being sensitive to that is part of being sensitive to their feelings and needs overall. I also try to avoid leaving my children with a feeling of abandoment; however, it seems to me to be simple common sense that if a child cries more with you there, then, whatever the issue is, it isn’t a feeling of abandoment.
As I say, I have no doubt that my child would eventually have gone to sleep from sheer exhaustion no matter what I was doing, because there are limits on how long it’s physically possible to stay awake. However, that wouldn’t mean the gentle methods worked – it would mean that the child’s physical need for sleep eventually worked in spite of the gentle methods working against it. My definition of ‘works’ does not include ‘child eventually passes out through sheer exhaustion after having gone through increasingly distressing states of sleep deprivation’. I don’t want a method that keeps my child awake until she becomes so desperately exhausted that she falls asleep in spite of it; I want a method that will enable her to get sleep as easily and comfortably as possible when she needs it.
And my definition of “works” does not include my child shutting down because he or she has given up that I am coming.
Do you really believe that an infant or even a toddler under 2 knows that you are there for him if he is alone in a room? You keep saying child here…I am under the impression we are talking about babies. I do not believe a baby needs to work something out for himself by crying alone in a room.
BTW, there have been times with my daughter when she’d cry harder and longer when I did try to parent her to sleep than she did when I just left her alone. It wasn’t just a choice between leaving her to cry or not – it was sometimes a choice between a few minutes of crying on her own, or more crying with me there.
I don’t think my daughter is particularly intense. I just think she has a hard time going to sleep, and I’ve learned that meeting her needs in that way *does* sometimes mean just leaving her alone to cry.
Candace (reply to comment #12, above): My definition doesn’t include that, either. I just don’t believe that the reason my child stops crying and falls asleep after under ten minutes is because crying for that amount of time causes her to shut down and give up (only to recover miraculously by the next morning). I believe it’s because being left alone for that amount of time is what she needs in order to get to sleep.
If you mean, does my child know at that point that I was there for her in general terms, then, no, I don’t think she thinks about it in those sorts of abstractions. I think her emotions at that point are confusion and upset because the process of getting to sleep sometimes proves complicated and she has a bit of trouble with it. Unfortunately, having me there at those times doesn’t help things; it makes them worse. If I could help her with it, I gladly would, but I can’t, because all attempts to soothe her just keep her awake.
When I say ‘work something out’, I don’t mean that, in this particular case, she needs to cogitate on a problem by herself. I mean that she needs to manage the problem of going to sleep by herself, because having me there trying to soothe her keeps her awake. I’ve needed to accept that and deal with it in the same way that, when she and her brother are older, I’ll sometimes have to accept and deal that they have to deal with the problems they have then without stepping in to work everything out. I know it’s unusual to have to do so at this stage, because, of course, babies don’t generally have the kind of problems that are best worked on alone. But some people do just need a bit of time completely on their own, without outside stimulation, to get to sleep, and when you couple this with a baby who’s crying for a few minutes in protest at having to stop all that interesting being awake and go to sleep or just plain to release some tension, then what you get is a baby who needs to be left alone crying for a few minutes in order to get to sleep. That’s what I’ve got, and I’ve learned to accept that that’s sometimes (less often – she’s getting a lot smoother with her falling asleep as she gets older) what she needs.
You’ve reached that conclusion. But I disagree. Obviously there is no way for me to prove it, but I do believe that although it may be hard to find, there is a way to get a baby adequate sleep without leaving the baby alone. I know that with my daughter it was not easy but it did eventually work. I do not believe any baby *needs* to be left alone crying to go to sleep.
I know this is a reply to an “old” post, but I want to reinforce what you mentioned about doctors recommending “tough love.” My doctor did the same on many occasions and I am so glad that I was well read and well researched on the subject so that he did not influence me to try CIO.
I know many parents listen to everything their doctor tells them b/c they trust them, even if it is parenting advice rather than medical advice. It angers me that the overwhelming opinion is that CIO is just fine. I do believe that the same situation arises with formula. Pediatricians don’t seem to be as invested in breastfeeding as they should be.
As far as the c-sections go, I am one who does not believe in taking any risks that could harm my child and I’d happily have a c-section to avoid problems. But I do agree that there are far too many of them performed. My daughter was breech and I read about ways she could have been delivered vaginally, but the bottom line was, I was not going to take that risk for my “birth experience.” It was about her and her health, well-being and safely. I think some women do get caught up in a vaginal birth at any cost and it can be detrimental.
Another reply to an old post…but i have found this old discussion to be rather riveting! I never knew there could be such a rift between AP and non AP parents. Shoulda figured though….it seems like there are battle lines drawn everywhere these days!
I am one of those women who was given bad advise from a midwife after being violated by her. I had a total unnessecarian and suffered lack of milk too. I refused to let the nurses give my daughter sugar water or formula for 4 days until they told me she was losing a terrible amount of weight. She was also extremely dehydrated and had brick staining in her urine. Looking back at those pictures from that first week or two you can see how dehydrated she looked….her eyes all sunken and wrinkly and dry looking. I tried everything….consultants, herbs, pills, teas and tinctures and a very costly medical grade breast pump in conjunction with breast feeding non stop. I will never get over and i do mean never get over my failure as a mother and also do not appreciate being lumped into the lazy or the ignorant category!
How ever I totally agree that most birthing and breast feeding problems are avoidable, for what ever reason. My situation was totally avoidable and i have the rest of my life to reconcile that on my own with out getting salt poured into my wound every time I try to do research about such issues concerned with natural birth and breastfeeding and AP.
I am also one of those mothers who does not have any support from family (spouse included) and am pretty much a single mother…the only difference is I know there is somebody there that should be helping but isn’t. So sometimes when my extremely “touch hungry” 16 month daughter keeps me up all day and most of the night I wonder if my kid is gonna be taken away from me because my house is a complete disaster and I too am a complete disaster. I don’t feel that CIO is right for me and have tried just about everything….she never slept in my wrap or sling….she would cry and cry and cry for upwards of 30-40 min at 2 months of age…she never liked rocking or singing or cuddling. She never liked her baby swing…what else? She has never fallen asleep in my arms. She will only non nutritively nurse herself to sleep and sometimes my nipples get so sore (yes I know about lanolin!) It doesn’t feel the same as regular nursing.
She wakes up constantly during nap time….she constantly wakes up at night…..sometimes every hour, and she’s 16 months. Yes I think I am allowed to be tired and I will become a monster if I don’t get a break now and then! So one time I let her cry at 7 months for 5 hours…..I stopped because I felt in my heart that it was not for me to go even beyond 30 min but I was desperate to do anything. I feel bad but I know alot of babies who go to sleep after 20 min so I thought I’d try.
So here I am back doing research….and came across your blog. I think it’s great! such a wide range of opinions! I still don’t know what I’m going to do but I don’t think total CIO is for me. I’ve been thinking about putting a crib beside my bed so my daughter atleast knows I’m there and not gosh knows where!
Thanks for your honesty and passion and sorry If I’m a little long winded.