Friday
Jun262009
Sex and Sleep
Friday, June 26, 2009 
Photo credit: "At the end of a very long day" by KitLKat on flickr
There was some banter the other day on twitter comparing sleep with sex. I'm not sure if it originated with or ended with Ann Douglas, but the conversation at some point came around to the intro to her book Sleep Solutions for Your Baby, Toddler and Preschooler: The Ultimate No-Worry Approach for Each Age and Stage (Mother of All Solutions)
, which says:Sleep is a lot like sex. If you're not getting it as much as you'd like, it can become a bit of an obsession. Suddenly, all you can think about is when you last had it, how great it felt when you had it, and what you can do to get some again.
Sounds logical. Maybe sleep is like sex in the way that Ann described. In terms of our obsession with it. And maybe that is where the discussion ends. But as someone that uses analogies a lot and that once wrote an hour long presentation comparing web content with food, I tend to follow the analogy down a path and see if it continues to work.
Let me explain.
Sex makes us happy. Sleep makes us happy. Lack of sex makes us cranky. Lack of sleep makes us cranky.
If you have a newborn baby in your house, you may be starved for sleep. If you are the spouse of a woman who recently pushed a baby out of her vagina you may be starved for sex. If you are starved for sleep or starved for sex, then you might, as Ann explained, be obsessed with it, be thinking about when you last had it, how great it felt when you had it, and what you can do to get some again.
So what can you do to get some again?
First of all, it is important to recognize that it is normal for newborns to not sleep through the night and it is normal for women to not be interested in sex right after having a baby. It is also a reality that some babies are ready to sleep through the night earlier than others are, just as some women are interested in sex earlier than others are. And we like to compare. Why does her baby sleep through the night and mine doesn't? Why is his wife dragging him into bed every night and mine has no interest in sex?
If you are on the losing end of that equation, you are probably trying to figure out what you can do to get some more. There are appropriate and inappropriate ways to deal with that. If someone is obsessed with sex, it is appropriate for them to use gentle, loving, techniques to try to convince a partner to have sex. It is not appropriate to use force to get someone to have sex with you. It is also not particularly respectful to complain and push, complain and push, complain and push with intermittent reminders that you love the person until that person finally gives in. Same with sleep. If someone is obsessed with sleep, it is appropriate to use gentle, loving techniques to try to get your baby to sleep so that you can get more sleep too. It is not appropriate to force a baby to sleep using methods like the extinction method of cry it out. It also isn't particularly respectful to say you have to sleep now and I'm going to let you cry for a bit, remind you that I love you, let you cry for a bit more, remind you that I love you, and then let you cry some more again until you finally go to sleep (otherwise known as graduated extinction).
But it is different too. Sleep is a necessity. We need sleep to live. Sure, many of us can get by with less than desirable amounts of sleep, with constant interruptions to our sleep, but we do need it. We don't need sex in the same way. We desire it, it is healthy, sometimes we want more of it and sometimes we want less of it. We may be obsessed with it, but we can survive without it. Does that make it okay to use force or disrespectful techniques to get sleep? I'll let you decide for yourself. But for me the answer is a very clear and unequivocal no.
There are countries where it is appropriate, accepted, and normal for a husband to force his wife to have sex. They would call it normal, a wife's duty. We don't think that is acceptable. There are also countries where it is appropriate, accepted, and normal for parents to use cry it out to force their children to sleep. They call it normal, a parenting choice. I don't buy it. Just as we need to challenge cultures, religions, regimes that allow women to be disrespected in that way, I believe that we need to challenge cultures, religions and regimes that allow babies to be disrespected in that way. (note: this paragraph was rephrased to remove a word that some found offensive and clarify that I was referring specifically to cry it out).
Whether we are talking about sleep or sex, I conclude that a gentle, loving approach the best way to get it. It is the humane way to get it. It is the respectful way to get it.
Reader Comments (82)
Oh Annie, leave it to you to compare sleep training with rape.
You kill me. ;)
@TheFeministBreeder: Actually, I'm comparing disrespecting a human being with disrespecting a human being.
I love this post. Giving our children the respect due any human being is imperative in my mind, and I just don't understand people who don't "get" that. Of course some people are going to see the rape comparison as extreme, but it's the basic concept of unnecessarily causing trauma for the someone you "love".
I REALLY love this post. I think you have carefully worded your post so as to ensure you are **not** suggesting that a parent who lets her child CIO is raping the child but rather that they are disrespecting the child.
That's totally different and, in my not-so-humble opinion, absolutely
correct. Parents who don't respect the developmental stage of their
baby by letting him/her CIO are forcing their choices on their child,
often at the detriment of the well-being of the child - be it
physiologic or psychologic.
Thank you, once again, for giving words to the thoughts that roll around in my head. And for offering voice to those too small to tell parents they are being disrespected!!
What I find especially hilarious is that I'd bet my 401k that no one would tell me to my face that I'm "disrespecting my child" by helping them learn how to sleep, but somehow it's okay on the internets.
My child has never been disrespected. Isn't happening. No matter what you type in your computer box.
@TheFeministBreeder:
I don't think anyone would say that you disrespected your child. I think the idea is that leaving a baby to CIO when they have no concept of time or permanence or why they are alone and vulnerable in the dark *is* disrespectful. If you are helping your child learn to sleep by supporting them, being with them and not trying to "train" them until they are old enough to understand what is happening then it isn't considered disrespect. Of course I speak of my own opinions only. In my experience babies who are left to CIO when they are quite young have a greater likelihood of having long-term issues surrounding sleep and/or dark.
It is certainly a topic that has the opportunity to be either contentious or thought-provoking. I see it as one to inspire thoughtfulness and reflection about how we raise our children.
@TheFeministBreeder: I wouldn't and couldn't tell you that because I don't think I've ever heard you specify what methods you use for sleep. I know you told me "no Ferber in my house", but beyond that I don't really know what you do and I don't know that I need to know either. I'll advocate on the Internet about what I think is ideal for society. It doesn't mean I need to peer into and critique exactly what goes on in each person's bedroom, with regards to sleep or sex.
There's a very interesting tone by many mothers today that the way they parent is the *right* way, and different way of parenting is nothing short of flagrant disregard for human life (i.e. rape.) I'd honestly find it insulting if it weren't so silly.
There are bloggers on the internets who believe that any mom who works outside the home is neglecting her child, and causing them to develop a deviant lifestyle - a ticking time bomb for drug addiction and delinquency.
Does that make their statements true? Nope.
Is it there right to post it? Yep.
But it certainly damages their credibility with me, because I don't buy this "my way or the highway" parenting judgment.
I have to wonder if you really believe that you're simply "sharing ideas" by calling someone else's style "disrespectful of their child" to the point of comparing it to rape. Those are some very harsh words for simply "sharing" an idea or research, and I didn't see any research at all in this "sleep training is rape" post.
I'm willing to bet if I posted a blog saying that WOHMs are "disrespecting" thier children, and compared it to rape, you'd have something to say about it, no? There's a big 'ol difference between sharing research and passing judgment in the form of "you will ruin your child's life if you do this." It's just mean. I don't need to hear that I'm "raping" my child.
BTW, Pantley, Sears, and Dr. Jay Gordon all advocate various methods of sleep training (or sleep guidance, as you know I like to call it). You think they consider it akin to rape?
@TheFeministBreeder: I said:
I never said that anything Pantley, Sears or Dr. Jay Gordon recommends is akin to rape. Never.
Some posts are based on ideas. Some posts are based on research. Parenting is an art and a science, as my byline says.
I am enjoying your blog even though I disagree with some of your approaches. It seems that for you nothing but co-sleeping will be good enough. Yes, there are some gentle ways to convince your baby to sleep, and, no, it doesn't necessarily mean co-sleeping. I have never had to sleep-train my child who slept in her own crib from the day we brought her home. I taught her early to fall asleep by herself using gentle and reasonable approach that I got from Secrets of Baby Whisperer. And, by the way, I had to get up every night to her to nurse her for 15 months straight (she wasn't a STTN baby). However, I didn't mind. For me it was the right thing to do, while co-sleeping wasn't. Oh, and by the way, I know a lot of hard-core co-sleepers that eventually went through CIO or other forms of sleep training, because they needed you know what? Their bed and their sleep back!
@Natalie: Co-sleeping is right for my family. It is, for us, the easiest way to meet our children's nighttime needs. I think that parents can meet their baby's nighttime needs if the baby is in a crib, but I am too lazy to get out of bed at night and I also miss my kids while at work during the day, so I love being able to cuddle at night. That said, http://www.kellymom.com/store/reviews/review_babywhisperer.html" rel="nofollow">I would never ever recommend Secrets of the Baby Whisperer due to the dismal and dangerous breastfeeding advice in that book.
@TheFeministBreeder: If you are going to take this post as "my way or the highway" parenting judgment, then you can probably write off my whole blog as that. This blog is about sharing ideas and research on better ways of parenting. I have started to feel lately that I have been bowing to much too the "http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/09/26/dont-judge-me/" rel="nofollow">don't judge me" cries out there when I write and that it isn't allowing me to share my ideas the way that I want to, the way that I started out. I don't syndicate my blog to my facebook page anymore for a very specific reason. I don't want to push my parenting ideas and choices on people that are not interested in reading them and I use facebook as a way of keeping in touch with friends that may not be interested in my views on parenting. My blog, however and my twitter account, are there as a venue for me to share my ideas on better ways of parenting. To be very frank, if you feel judged by it, perhaps it is best not to read it. I am quite happy to read a lot of things, even strong opinions, that are contrary to my own and take what works for me and leave the rest or debate it. I'm happy to debate the issues with you, with anyone, but I'm not going to stop sharing my ideas because some people may not like them.
I always miss the good discussions on Twitter. Sigh.
Anyways, I can see where you're going with the analogy. We want to be as respectful as possible. I wouldn't leave my children alone to cry. That's the choice that I've made. It's the choice I'm comfortable with. I wouldn't judge others for the choices that they make, and I hope that they would extend the same courtesy to me.
"The dismal and dangerous advice" of Baby Whisperer worked perfectly well for me. I listened to my daughter needs, but I didn't use my breast as a human pacifier. Of course, I was also lucky - my daughter was a healthy child and a barracuda nurser. I knew that she is getting enough and that she doesn't need to nurse every 20 min. She was on the reasonable schedule, and I also nursed her more often when she had growth spurts.
Sleep is the new breastfeeding. The hot button issue that seems to put Moms in two camps. More cannon fodder for the Mommy Wars - the family bed or else you are abusing your baby.
Here's my experience.
I gave birth to twin girls in December. I dutifully signed up for the natural childbirth class, where I was admittedly the most questioning of the dogma. Probably more "mainstream" whatever that means - I didn't eat my placenta. But I buy organic at the farmer's market, have an Ergo carrier which I love, belong to Greenpeace, breastfeed (but had to supplement with formula for the first 8 weeks, god forbid, until my milk supply was enough to support two hungry babes ), and we co-slept with twins for 6 months!!! So I must get at least a few brownie points from whoever is keeping score.
Co-sleeping with twins is no easy feat in a queen size bed. The first three months were good, we all slept quite well - considering - and the babies were well-rested and well-fed on demand. The last two months were hell for everyone. Babies kicking and screaming at all hours, impossible to get them down for naps without huge Herculean efforts which could all be for naught if they woke upon transfer to bed/crib/couch. Remember I have TWO babies. So I'd have to do this twice at various times throughout the day. The end result was overtired babies all the time. I was basically the nap manager during the day. That's all I did. Forget getting down on the floor and engaging in some fun times - I was usually rocking/wearing or nursing a baby down for a nap while the other waited for me to come for them.
Something had to give.
We took what we think is a reasonable approach to get them to sleep better. We moved them out of our bed and into their cribs. We sit by their cribs and soothe them down until they are asleep. When they wake in the middle of the night, I nurse them, and change them and take care of their need, and we are all sleeping better. There's a remarkable change in my energy, in my babies dispositions and general joie de vivre in my house. And it is definitely sleep training. Yes, they cried, but they in fact CRIED LESS than when we rocked/nursed/jiggled/pleaded to deity to let them sleep.
I seriously doubt anyone puts their baby in a cold dark room, shuts the door at 7 and doesn't go back in for 12 hours - even Ferber himself doesn't advocate this, but it sounds nasty to do that, so let's just keep repeating it until everyone believes that that's what us "mainstream" moms do.
My point after this long-winded response is that it isn't as black and white as you portray it. Babies can sleep peacefully and happily on their own, without tears, and it isn't coercive to help them get there.
Ha, I'm loving that quote!
@Olivegirl: You're putting words into my mouth. I didn't say "the family bed or else you are abusing your baby". Or maybe you weren't referring to me specifically, but just to the supposed "wars" in general. As I said in response to Natalie, the family bed is the best way for us to meet our children's needs. If other people are able to respond to their children's needs without co-sleeping, then all the power to them. There are lots of ways that parents can respectfully respond to their children's needs and each family needs to figure out what works best for them. It sounds like you have found something that works for your family while respecting your children's needs. There are, unfortunately, people that do put their baby in a room, shut the door, and not go back until the morning.
all I know is that there's nothing like a little sex to make you less cranky about not getting enough sleep!
@Barbara: I love it!
I wish I could articulate how I feel about this better than I actually can. My Nana said the other day that she figured out the reason our daughter is such a happy baby - it's because we never give her a reason to cry. If she has a need, we meet it, as soon as we can. That applies to everything, from a dirty diaper, to being hungry, to her sleep patterns. I completely agree that it disrespects our children to not give them what they need, when they need it. Even the thought of making them cry themselves to sleep breaks my heart.
I do have to point out though, not once in the entire article is co-sleeping mentioned. Not co-sleeping does not disrespect your children, and it isn't related in any way to crying it out.
As always Annie, I think you've written this very concisely, and used a great analogy. Thanks for a wonderful and 'provoking' post!
oh i love it
so many people would totally disagree with you - be offended...but its just brilliant I must link to you.
It just goes to show what forcing means and loving means...and how we have mixed it all up.
It also goes to show how little not only do we read our children but some times our partners.
love m
I always enjoy reading your blog, but really loved this particular post. I can't imagine doing anything other than co-sleeping and nursing at night. It makes life ever so much easier, is how nature intended it both biologically and anthropologically speaking, and doesn't involve any kind of nasty, pointless "training." I signed up to have a baby knowing it was going to take work, but, fortunately for me, it's work that I enjoy.
@Frost at Midnight - that's interesting because our first son would not sleep in our bed. Would. NOT. Sleep. He never slept well when we tried and tried and tried for him to sleep with us. What would you do then? Would you force your child to sleep with you and keep him up all night? Is that what nature intended? Talk about disrespectful to a child...
I love how some people think that there child is exactly like every other child in the world. It's hilarious.
Feminist Breeder,
It's interesting that you feel the need to make repeated comments about how you're feeling judged and yet you turn around and do the same thing to every other poster on here. If you want other people to respect your opinions then perhaps you should learn to respect the opinions of others yourself.
I respectfully suggest that if the comments in this blog bother you so much then perhaps you shouldn't read them. When I see something I disagree with it, I move on. I don't stick around to argue about it. If you feel you're doing the right thing with your kid, then what are you getting so worked up about?
@FeministBreeder "I love how some people think that there child is exactly like every other child in the world. " This sentiment is currently driving me bonkers IRL! Just because your toddler asks for a nap at 1:00 every day and goes down with no help at all, doesn't mean that you're a better parent than me, and that I should just do the exact same thing you did and I'll be fine. Argh!
Sorry, Annie, that was OT... Enjoyed this post - made me really think. Analogies can be so tricky, especially when such touchy subjects are involved. I love how you aren't afraid to dive right into stuff like this.
@Lindsay: Thank you. Re: "Analogies can be so tricky, especially when such touchy subjects are involved. I love how you aren’t afraid to dive right into stuff like this." I agree. I don't think that cry it out is like rape any more than web content is like food. But analogies can be useful in explaining a concept. Some people don't understand the difference between using an analogy and making a direct comparison though.
For those that do not understand what an analogy is:
When I gave my presentation on how web content is like food, none of the executives got up at the end and said, "that's preposterous, you can't eat a Web page". Instead they thanked me for using a concept that they did understand (food) to help them understand something they didn't (how users consume Web content).
An analogy is not a direct comparison.
I am not saying that sleep training is rape.
The definition of analogy is: "Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar." OTHERWISE DISSIMILAR. Rape and cry it out are dissimilar. Sex and sleep are dissimilar. They are not the same. I am not making a direct comparison. I am using the analogy to illustrate concepts and NONE OF THOSE CONCEPTS IS THAT SLEEP TRAINING IS LIKE RAPE.
To be fair to FB, in your post you write:
"There are countries where it is appropriate, accepted, and normal for a husband to force his wife to have sex...There are also countries where it is appropriate, accepted, and normal for parents to force their children to sleep on their own"
which is a direct comparison between forcing sex (rape) and forcing sleep (CIO). Now, I see the point you are trying to make in this post, so I'm not all bothered about it.
As for my opinion, sleep IS a necessity, and even moreso for babies than for us. Babies need sleep to be healthy and grow. And sometimes, babies don't want to go to sleep. Bed time is one of those perennial battlegrounds where parents insist that children do what they don't want to "for their own good." Now that doesn't mean I advocate CIO or other harsh methods of sleep training. However, I also know from experience that babies aren't always interested to go down without a fight.
If just forcing a child to do something they don't want to do is disrespectful to their person, then half your life as a parent could be interpreted as coercive, mean, or abusive. Of course kids don't want to go to bed! That is the nature of life. But as parents, we must sometimes insist that they do what they do not want to do, because we know it is most important for their overall well-being.
Once again, I'm not talking about CIO or other harsh or abusive measures. And of course all decisions should be made with age-appropriateness in mind. But if a parent decides that their child needs more sleep, and would better achieve that in their own space, and the child is old enough to soothe themselves, and the parent achieves that through a method which, while not abusive, could be considered "coercive," in that it is subjecting the child's will to the parent's, then that is just the prerogative of the parent, not some nefarious plot to remove the bodily rights or integrity of the child.
I think it DOES go back to respect...and expectations. We run into trouble when we expect someone to be something they aren't, or do something they don't want to do. We get frustrated because we think they should be doing it our way...and in our frustration we sometimes try to force the issue. Instead we should learn to accept people (adults AND babies) for where they are. If a baby is crying and needs comfort, comfort that baby. Accept that they aren't miniature adults and give them the care and compassion they need. Don't try to force them into adult sleep habits when they just aren't there yet!!! Excellent post.
There are ways you can help your baby sleep alone. I totally agree. The reasons me and my husband, co-sleeping parents, choose to do this is that the baby's needs ar at least as important as ours.
If my baby feels security and serenity by sharing the bed with us, but, on the other side, we would prefer sleeping without him, have all the bed for us and have sex in the bedroom :)), we choose to make ourselves the compromise, not the baby. I never felt it as a compromise, my husband did it a couple of times at the very begging. Still, his decision was the same: for him, we shall do this. Our nights in two will be in the livingroom, his sweet sleep in our bed, with 1-2h hours stayng there alone ;)
There is no argument in this world that could pursuade me that my baby is feeling better sleeping alone. He is the only one who can tell me this and he is not (telling that). I might be feeling better without him? For the sake of the argument let's say yes (it's a no:) ). Then my choice is clear: my baby's needs are the most important. Period.
Nice post, and very logical analogy!
I tend to use this screening process for how I treat my children: would I treat my husband/best friend that way? For instance, if my husband were scared at night, or upset and crying in bed, would I leave him alone in the room? Absolutely not! Would I put my husband in a time-out chair if he did something that I viewed as unacceptable? No. We'd talk about it. Would I use methods that were originally developed for the training of animals with my husband? No.
@Emily Jones: The comparison that I was making there is that just because a society is accepting of one person forcing their will on another, doesn't mean that we have to accept that. In some societies, women are considered lesser human beings than men. In our society, I think often we treat children like lesser human beings. Again, I wasn't saying that cry it out = rape. I was using an analogy.
@Trish: I love that. I try to use that screening process too.
PhD: I understand what you were trying to say, I'm just saying I can see where FB got her conclusion. Also, as I was saying, sometimes we DO have to impose our will on our children, that is the nature of parenting. Yes they ARE lesser human beings, they are not-yet-fully-developed humans, and are given to our care to make them into fully-developed humans. Granted, we can still do that and respect their person, and respect their personalities, but parenting always comes down to deciding when and how to something is important enough to teach your children that you must force them to do something they don't want to do. (i.e. not play in the street, go to bed at a reasonable hour, brush their teeth, etc.)
@Emily Jones: I agree. And I think that means it is even more important that we consider how to do that in a respectful way. If I disrespect my husband or a friend, they can choose to leave me. My kids, however, are stuck with me (unless the authorities decide to take them away). So I think that means I have an even greater responsibility to ensure that I am treating my children with respect. It does mean that sometimes they have to do things they don't want to do. It also means that I will go out of my way to give them input into how those things happen.
" sometimes we DO have to impose our will on our children, that is the nature of parenting."
I'm not sure that's true, though. Don't get me wrong, I do "impose my will" on a regular basis, sometimes because I don't see any other way for it to work (for instance, the Boychick is hypothyroid and needs regular blood draws, which he simply Does Not Want), but usually because I am overwhelmed and unable to be as creative as I'd like. But regardless, I know enough parents who live consentually (or strive to) that I don't think it's necessarily or universally true that parenting REQUIRES imposing one's will.
It's just one of those fundamental philosophical differences, like whether kids are fully persons (with as-yet limited capabilities), or works-in-progress (who are still fully fabulous); those different starting points, whether recognized or not, will lead us to very different conclusions about right actions in parenting.
(Annie, I'm not really replying to your post 'cause I don't have much to say about it other than I loved it, and you're sure earning that most provocative blog award!)
Thanks @Arwyn.
Since Arwyn mentioned it, in case you are not familiar with consensual parenting is, I wrote about that too: http://www.phdinparenting.com/2008/11/27/consensual-living/" rel="nofollow">Consensual Living
Not sure what an analogy is? Try http://www.factmonster.com/analogies" rel="nofollow">Analogy of the Day. Today's is: Delicatessen is to cheese as newsstand is to magazine. Please note: DO NOT TRY TO EAT THE MAGAZINE. IT IS NOT LIKE CHEESE.
Seriously! Your blog makes me think, laugh and then say "Amen to that" when I'm done reading.
Oh and don't censor yourself. I love reading your thoughts as is.
This are two different things. If you force the baby to sleep, it would not sleep. It would only close its eyes and pretend to sleep. You didn't achieve your goal. But if you force yourself on your wife, it can be called rape, but you achieved your goal.
http://www.getbettersleeptips.com/
Maybe if we all had a nap, we could have a discussion where people don't get offended by literary devices! I get what your point was, and I think that you were following an analogy another person had made! Also, Trish was spot on in her test for behavior.
I find that mothers (all people, really) sometimes have to take a moment and realize that whatever particular argument is being made is not usually a personal condemnation of them. There are people who have used Ferber's books, *incorrectly*. It's been years, but I *think* even he said not to use his methods under a certain age. There are also people who read Dr. Sears and never get to the part where he talks about loving guidance. The point is, do what is right for your family. The entire family. If you and hubby didn't want to be interrupted at night or ever have people touching you, may I suggest an outdoor cat? :)
My fave analogy (but I've never taken to the end, so bear with me) is that I imagine my baby as a guest from a foreign land who I have invited to spend the year. They don't speak the language, know the customs or how to drive, and it would be incumbent on me to make them comfortable.
That said, there are often nights when 3 of my 4 kids are in the best with us. It helps that we're short, and we've assigned people to their own squares!
"...But that is the unfortunate conclusion some people are drawing from PhDinParenting's new post about how sleep is like sex. In her post, PhDinParenting says this..."
do not try to eat the magazine. annie, you crack me up! by being a provocative blogger i think it goes without saying that sometimes you will have to face some less than thrilled commenters. i think you handle it beautifully, you write well, and i also think it wouldn't hurt us all to remember that being nice is a good thing to strive for (with out kids, in the blogosphere, and so on). wrote about that today on my blog in reaction to how i was feeling reading all these comments on your blog.
not that i imagine you being the type to get discouraged by "negative press" but still i am passing on a little "hold your head up" vibes.
robin
Arwen, PhD - I disagree with the consensual parenting philosophy. While I believe my children are individuals in the sense that they have their own tastes and preferences, and different ways of approaching problem solving, they are not developmentally capable of being full partners in decision-making (that's not opinion, that's scientific fact - that we only gain certain emotional and intellectual skills over time).
Yes, children should be respected, in that their personalities and helpless position should be taken into account, but the inherent nature of parent-child relationship is that one has executive privileges while the other does not. And it has to be that way, since children necessarily lack certain fundamental emotional and intellectual skills. In fact, that is how they gain them: by us teaching it to them. Children may be born with individual personalities, but they do not automatically come with experience or judgment. That is the function of parents.
And when one person has more power than another, power struggles will naturally develop occasionally, so yes, sometimes parenting does require imposing your will. But imposing your will is not inherently bad or evil - it just comes with the territory. The trouble comes with doing it in a cruel or disrespectful manner. It is possible for parents to be assertive and in control while allowing children their own integrity and individuality.
Emily -
If you disagree, then you disagree. :) And I wouldn't even say we "do" consensual living either. I just know enough people who DO that I don't think it's accurate or fair to say that it "can't" or "doesn't" work. I /choose/ to accept that I impose my will -- respectfully, as much as possible -- on my child at times, but I don't pretend that it simply MUST happen, because I know families where it simply /doesn't/.
Which I think does relate to this post: some husbands say they simply "must" use force to achieve copulation with their wives; some parents say they simply "must" use CIO or "graduated extinction" to get their children to sleep. But my partner knows force isn't required for sex with me, and I as a parent know crying out of arms isn't required for my child to sleep.
Now, if a parent still /chooses/ to use extinguishment, well, that's their choice, just as it's my choice to impose my will on issues like food and time pressures (although if a husband rapes his wife, he bloody well ought to go to jail, because this is an analogy and thus has limitations and dissimilarities). I'm just going to disagree about whether it's *necessary*, and yes, whether it's *good*.
Arwyn - I never said it can't or doesn't work. I just said I disagree with the philosophy. Whether it "works" or not depends on your definition of "work."
And yes, you're right, no one HAS to do anything. Everything is a choice, no one can MAKE anyone do anything, etc etc. One does not have to accept the authority that comes with their role; that doesn't mean the authority does not exist, however. Okay, if you REALLY want to get esoteric, authority itself doesn't technically exist, as all people are constrained ultimately by their own conscience. But we are getting really far afield and silly here.
The point is that parents are inherently in a position of power, whether they choose to use it or not. And as I said above, imposing your will is not inherently bad or evil – it just comes with the territory. It is possible for parents to be assertive and in control while allowing children their own integrity and individuality.
Also, it's not a matter of opinion whether children are fully emotionally or intellectually capable of being partners in decision-making. It's been proven by child development studies that some skills just don't come until certain ages. So the question is not whether children are fully developed (they're not), but whether you are willing to allow them a say in the decision process, and how much of a say, knowing they do not have the full capabilities of an adult yet. That, of course, is obviously a matter of opinion.
I wanted to share with you all the way I rape my children.
Today I raped my son numerous times. He hates getting his diaper changed. Sure, I cheered him up by blowing raspberries and kissing on him, but initially, I forced him on the changing table against his will.
I also raped my older son by laying him down for a nap. He wasn't tired, or so he said in a whining voice right before I soothed him. But I raped him nonetheless.
I raped my stepdaughter a few months ago. I simply don't believe 12-year-olds should wear cleavage-baring shirts, so I asked her to change.
And by all of these comparisons, I of course mean, "I disrespected them by going against their will and making a parental choice for their own good." You see the logic there, naturally.
One of my Facebook friends saw the Twitter conversation about this blog post and mused, "What's odd to me is that the blog doesn't read as thought the author was intentionally trying to be inflammatory by making such a comparison. Could she just be that dense and insensitive?"
Rape is nothing to use as a light analogy. I'm actually glad for you that you don't know how serious it is. May no one you love ever have to join the ranks of the 1 in 3 college women and 1 in 4 American women overall who do know the horrors of this crime.
Now, I have to go rape my chickens. By that, of course, I mean, "Close the coop for the night because they haven't developed fully enough to be able to do it for themselves or see why it might be good for them."
@Cate: If you are going to complain or object to me using rape at all in an analogy, then I can accept that criticism. But your comment demonstrates that you didn't understand what I meant with the analogy at all. I wasn't trying to say anywhere at all that disagreeing with your child or setting limits is inappropriate. I can make parental choices for my child's own good, but in my books letting your child cry to sleep alone is not for the child's own good.
@phdinparenting
Though I don't agree with CIO, I do agree with bedtimes and routines and even training to get to this point. And for some children (and all are different, as we all know), sleeping alone is the better place for them. My 3-year-old included. (My 15-m-o sleeps in our room in his own bed.)
You equated a parenting decision--getting a child into normal sleep patterns--with rape.
Most people would call that not only an illogical analogy, but a careless one.
Other feminists have called you on that here. We don't think the word "rape" should be taken so lightly, even if it for a parenting choice that we don't agree with.
You also seem to draw a thin line between "training" a child to sleep with CIO. They're absolutely not the same thing, as both sons would tell you if they weren't going to be asleep in their own beds for the next 10 hours.
Go ahead and be a provocateur! I am! But understand that if you have to edit your post after the fact to specify just what kind of parents are the *real* rapists, you might be using a term carelessly and not considering its weight and history to some readers.