Day in and day out, I keep hearing and reading the term Breastfeeding Nazi used to describe lactation consultants, La Leche League leaders, breastfeeding advocates and other lactivists. I think it is completely inappropriate.
- First, lactivists have not killed millions of people like the Nazis did. People that advocate for breastfeeding are doing so to give babies the best possible start in life and to save lives. In fact, improved and increased breastfeeding could save millions of lives each year. According to UNICEF:
It has been estimated that improved breastfeeding practices could save some 1.5 million children a year. Yet few of the 129 million babies born each year receive optimal breatsfeeding and some are not breastfed at all. Early cessation of breastfeeding in favour of commercial breastmilk substitutes, needless supplementation, and poorly timed complementary practices are still too common. Professional and commercial influences combine to discourage breastfeeding, as do continued gaps in maternity legislation.
- Second, calling someone that is an enthusiastic advocate of something a Nazi trivializes and minimizes the suffering of the victims of the Holocaust. Even if you feel like you have been a “victim” of extreme lactivism, you cannot in good conscience compare that to the complete and utter horror that the Nazis carried out.
So stop. Please stop. It is not appropriate. Not funny.
Don’t believe me? Want to know more? Then read the perspective of Kathy Kuhn, a Jewish lactation consultant. Or the perspective of the child of a Nazi prisoner of war camp.
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What a great article!!!
agreed and amen!
Werd. The second point is a great thing to remember in regards to ANY group.
hear hear. Glib use of the word ‘Nazi’ makes me sick. I’m looking at you (& feeling sick, in a powerful, pissed off way), Rush Limbaugh.
I wonder, not all that seriously, but a little curiously, if the Nazi part of the term is more picking out neo-Nazis than German Nazis. That is, I wonder if the comparison is supposed be to white supremacists and not to the actual historical events of World War II.
@Backpacking Dad: Honestly, I think the tendency to use it comes from the Seinfeld “Soup Nazi” episode more than anything else. Whether the comparison is to modern day or historical Nazis, I think it is completely inappropriate.
Thank you!
Now, how to get people inclined to use this word this way to read your blog? (Also, if you can think of a way to stop people saying Feminazi let me know!)
@ Split Milk If you see people using the term on other blogs, on twitter, or anywhere, feel free to send them a link to this post.
Oh, and ‘bodynazi’ -those that work out a lot. It is really inappropriate. I too hate that useage. Thanks
Thanks for writing this up – I cringed when I read a blog with a follow breastfeeding mom using this term yesterday and tweeted about it. Nice to know that it offends many people – it’s go to stop!
Also, another term used for breastfeeding moms (and moms who practice AP or some of it) treehugger? People are funny!
Amen!
Thank you for posting this! It drives me insane when people use the word Nazi to describe LCs and others who are passionate about supporting breastfeeding moms.
@Elita, Passionate about feeding your OWN child is one thing, passionate about demoralizing women who can’t breastfeed or who are in pain is like the bible thumpers or cultists. Someone who imposes terror on women while in fragile state IS comparable to a Nazi. LC’s can be educators, or they can be Nazis, and unfortunately, my only experience has been with a woman who over-stepped her boundaries, man-handled my breasts, and humiliated me. I was basically assulted. So until you learn what people other than the women who have always had “the dream” go through, then you’ll continue in complete ignorance, which is what this blog DOES NOT COMPREHEND. There are two sides to a story. This blog should address both sides, including the women who were thankful for the breastfeeding support kit while their breasts were inflamed and bleeding, infected and oozing. No child should have to suckle at the nipple of an infection.
@ Not Your Boobs, Not Your Problem:
There are lots of people that act inappropriately at times. That doesn’t make them comparable to Nazis.
After my first child was born, I had trouble breastfeeding. I had a nurse in the hospital squeeze my breast and pinch it with her long finger nails to the point where I had huge bruises on my engorged breasts. Inappropriate? Yes. Unacceptable? Yes. A Breastfeeding Nazi? No.
The same nurse, came by later and said “since he still doesn’t seem to be latching on, why don’t we just give him some formula so that he’ll know what it feels like to have a full stomach and then maybe he’ll eat“. Inappropriate? Yes. Uneducated approach to dealing with a baby that is not latching? Yes. Formula Nazi? No.
When I was having to exclusively pump for my son because he wouldn’t latch on, another woman (pregnant at the time, but not yet a mother), said “my sister is a lactation consultant and she said that all babies can breastfeed, but some moms just don’t do it right“. Inappropriate? Yes. A Breastfeeding Nazi. No.
@ Not Your Boobs, Not Your Problem: THANK YOU for having the courage to stick up for what can be a very touchy subject.
I’ve used the term breastfeeding nazi on more than one instance (most commonly to myself and maybe my husband while venting). It was most often being directed towards someone who was on the crazed end of breastfeeding – the type that had no problems telling you were wrong for going to formula (as if it was any of their business). The nurses with my first son were a tad strong and not very helpful, but the ones with my second son were very encouraging and nice – so for me this term always went to the psycho moms that always put their nose in where it didn’t belong.
I’ve always associated the nazi term with being strict, fanatic, ignorant of any other way of doing things — not a mass murderer or anything like that. I’m sorry that it’s become a common phrase and has the ability to offend people, but that’s not going to stop people from using it – especially when the writer of this blog doesn’t even bother getting both sides (which, in my opinion, is typical of what I hate the most about breastfeeding nazis. You’re right, I’m wrong – no other options exist!)
Jen:
There are plenty of terms that have been common place in the past and that are no longer acceptable. I hope that the flippant use of the term nazi will soon belong on that list.
With regards to not getting the other side of the story, I’m not sure what you mean. You mean the story of people who think that Nazi is a fun term to throw around?
Point taken, point appreciated. However, taking away a woman’s choice is deplorable. LC’s should be educators, not running the show. Let a woman decide if she would like to be touched, or “helped along” as they see it. Let a woman decide if she wants to give the child formula. Educate all you want, but don’t take away my power that I darn-well earned by carrying this child.
@Not Your Boobs, Not Your Problem I wouldn’t dream of taking away that choice. Even if I don’t agree with someone’s choice, I will fight for their right to choose.
@ Not Your Boobs, Not Your Problem: I obviously haven’t seen every lactation consultant out there, but my experience is that true lactation consultants (international board certified) are pretty good with the protocol of asking moms first before touching and that type of thing. It is the nurses in the Mom & Baby wards at the hospital that are overzealous about prodding and squeezing without asking first.
Agreed that the word Nazi is inappropriate. People use it for a lot of things, not just overzealous breastfeeding advocates, and it’s never appropriate.
Also agreed that the way some people behave when it comes to breastfeeding is completely inappropriate. But one behaviour doesn’t excuse the other.
Very well said, I agree completely. I posted something in the same vein last year http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/09/17/no-more-nazis-please/
@Not Your Boobs, Not Your Problem
A smart friend of mine says “It’s not a choice if you don’t have all the information.” Lactation educators and consultants exist to provide the information – and they can only speak to you if you let them. If you don’t want the information, don’t seek it out. But don’t blame them for telling you something you don’t want to hear and then accuse them of making you feel bad.
You don’t hire a plumber to have him talk you out of getting your leaky toilet fixed. So why hire an LC (or attend a LLL meeting or read a Lactivists blog) if you’re not interested in hearing about what you can do to be more successful at breastfeeding? Just walk away.
I’m personally grateful for all the committed women who moved hell and high water to help me through my breastfeeding struggles. If I wasn’t committed to what I was doing, I could have easily said they were being pushy or uncaring; but since I was committed, their commitment was welcome and absolutely vital to my success. The world needs more of these people, not less, and the way these women/people are seen is 100% based on the perspective of the receiver of the information.
No one can make you feel anything unless you let them. If you’re feeling guilty or disrespected because of your choice, as my brilliant Interpersonal Communications professor would always say “You own that problem.”
I’ve said the same thing to my husband when he’s started in on “environazis” or “femnazis”. Just not an appropriate comparison. I know he got the habit from his parents, and I think I’ve mostly broken it for him now.
Yes, some people are very pushy about their beliefs. That doesn’t warrant a comparison with Nazis.
@phdinparenting and @TheFeministBreeder Touché You both do have a way with words!
Yes! This and joking about OCD are my two biggest pet peeves. Neither are a joke.
I would never use such a term to describe the amazing and yes, at some times pushy people that tried to help me through my breastfeeding journey. My husband on the other hand used it a lot when he saw me going through the hard times. I do not think it was a personal dig at anyone, just him venting his frustration for not being able to help in such a hard time.
When I did make the choice to switch to a hypoallergenic formula when my daughter was eight months old, after about the millionth nursing strike. I never once heard anyone say I was wrong in what I did.
My only wish is that more LC’s and LLL are educated about babies with sever silent reflux and food sensitivities. I did have the hardest time trying to get suggestions that worked. Granted the things I was told may have worked for the “Happy Spitters”. None of them worked on mine. I can only wonder if the outcome of my breastfeeding journey would have been better if I along with all the medical professionals and LC’s I encountered really new what my daughter was going through.
Couldn’t have said it better myself! Great article!
@Not Your Boobs, Not Your Problem
Since you addressed your response specifically to me, I’ll reply. First of all, no one on this blog or my own is passionate about demoralizing women who can’t or choose not to breastfeed. That’s not my target demographic. The whole point of my blog is to support women who WANT to nurse. The use of the word Nazi is inappropriate and offensive to me as a Jewish person. Nazis are people who killed my relatives and tortured my grandparents. I am not a Nazi.
I didn’t have “the dream” start to breastfeeding either. It doesn’t mean that my breastfeeding relationship with my son was ruined. I worked through our problems and we are still nursing at 17 months.
Please tell me why this blog has to cover both sides of any issue? Annie is free to discuss or not discuss anything she’d like. It’s her site. She is amazing at being respectful of both sides of an issue, but she doesn’t HAVE to do anything. Her responses to you so far have been a lot more polite and cordial than mine would have been had you left this nonsense on my blog.
Amen! I feel the same way about people who throw around the term ‘child abuse’ cavalierly. Unfortunately, there are real and tragic things that happen in the world. Let’s not belittle that by comparing well-meaning people to war criminals.
@amber – I will admit I have trouble using the words “well-meaning” to some of the people that have been called the insulting phrase in question. I know several people who have encountered breastfeeding “advocates” who were hurtful, demeaning and insulting, and I can’t see any reason to believe these people meant well at all.
Point well taken — I use the term jokingly sometimes; guess I had better stop! By the way, what is in the photo? At the risk of sounding uneducated, I don’t recognize the image?
@Alina – It is the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin
I love you, Annie, for using Godwin’s Law to say that the “discussion” on breastfeeding has degenerated into something of a non-productive mudslinging session.
If someone saying “human breast milk is the healthiest means of feeding human babies” makes someone feel so oppressed and deprived of rights and freedom that they feeling the Nazis are closing in on them, I am concerned for them– both for their mental health and for their total insensitivity and lack of historical knowledge.
My two cents? A lot of women are terrified deep down that being tied to babies will put them right back in the place where their grandmothers were (in the U.S., anyway). It’s a knee-jerk response because of unaddressed fears. Example:
Woman #1: Do you need some help with breastfeeding? If you’d like the number of the lactation consul—
New Mother: Don’t freaking oppress me, you Nazi!!
It’s hard to be a mom sometimes. Can we really be attached to our kids and let them be attached to us AND maintain our footing and power in the world? Will breastfeeding on demand relegate us to second-class citizenship and make us wear an armband that indicates that we are a powerless baby factory and food machine?
I don’t think so. Some women do. Can you please tell me why you feel this way WITHOUT the insensitive comparisons to Nazis? Many thanks.
@jill – rarely have I heard a conversation of the type you wrote. More often I’ve heard of conversations like –
Mother – Breastfeeding is going horribly, I’ve tried everything and it’s not getting better, I’m in pain every time
“Advocate” – If you’re doing it right it shouldn’t hurt!
Mother – OK, except it obviously DOES hurt and I’ve GOTTEN help and it’s not working and I’m miserable and my baby’s miserable and I am considering switching to formula feeding
“Advocate” – Well, if you don’t want to do what’s best for your baby!
Or, worse examples. Such as when a friend was feeding her baby from a bottle in a baby/mama room at a shopping mall and someone came up to her and told her she shouldn’t be in that room, because she was taking up the space of a breastfeeding mother who deserved to be there.
Trust me, there’s assholes on both sides.
@zchamu – Youre’ right, some people talk like that. I for one do not like to be associated with that type of “advocate.” Usually those people are uneducated nurses, not lactation consultants or LLL leaders or osme of the other ‘lactivists’ I have met. For a great example of a truly good lactation consultant doing her job well, you should check this out on the blog of @Birth_Lactation – Stork and Stories… Birth and Breastfeeding http://obnurse35yrs.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/breastfeeding-bottle-feeding-and-somewhere-in-between/
Now that’s how people should talk!
I came back from your tweet & saw your comment that you thought the “soup nazi” episode was the main reason for the word’s “popularity”.
I did a little wiki research & that episode was in 1995, Limbaugh was using ‘feminazi’ in 1992 or earlier. So, I think that may be a bigger reason. Could be both.
Thanks for the post. I wrote a similar one a little while ago.
Note that any irrelevant comparisons to Nazis, Hitler or fascists invokes a correlate of Godwin’s Law, also known as reductio ad Nazium or Hitlerum. In other words, the one who invokes the ridiculous comparison (such as Rush Limbaugh) automatically loses the argument.
Thanks for making this important point — it needs to be made every time an inappropriate Nazi comment is made.
I visited Auschwitz when I was ten on a trip to Poland with my grandmother, I’ve never forgotten the things I’d seen (I’m 38 now). It always angered me that people have misused the term (or worse, claim it never happened). It’s appalling that people use the word inappropriately and with regard to something so natural and good for mom and baby.
Fortunately, any help I’d ever gotten the first time around from LCs, IBCLCs, and LLL, they tried really hard to help with my seriously low milk supply (to no avail), but they were always kind and compassionate about it. My first LLL leaders’ credo was “feed the baby first” (whether pumped milk or formula and preferably by finger feeding or SNS), then troubleshoot the problems. It took the pressure off me a little bit. Every little bit counts. I was able to partly bf for 6 months. Of course, when I found the internet, I learned so much more about the ins and outs of bf, that by baby #3, I probably knew more than some of the lactation experts, and I was able to bf for 3 years.
I’m going to play Devil’s Advocate here for a second, because as I read more of the comments I think the post is less about breastfeeding or namecalling than it is about argumentation and standards. And so while I’m not particularly vocal about breastfeeding I AM fairly vocal about argument.
So…
1) It is possible to refer to someone as an x-Nazi and not violate any argumentative standards. The association fallacy (your position is associated with X, and X is evil, so your position supports evil) works as a criticism of x-Nazi type statements in arguments when the aspect of Nazi-ism being used for comparison is genocide or the Holocaust, because few real-world examples of behaviour are legitimately compared to a desire for genocide, so to make the comparison is disingenuous and purposefully distracting. However, there are other parts of the Nazi concept, particularly the FASCISTIC or DICTATORIAL aspects of organization, PROPAGANDA, and STRONG BLIND PARTY LOYALTY that are manifest in organizations even today. In those cases in which an x-Nazi comparison is made that picks up on these parts of the Nazi concept it is immune from the association fallacy: it is not saying that x is bad because it is like the Nazis in a hyperbolic way (genocidal Holocaust perpetrators), but in some deplorable but genuine way (fascistic imposition of party philosophy). If “nazi” is supposed to do more work than evoke the organizational aspects of the candidate for comparison, then yes, it is a fallacious usage.
2) “boob-Nazi” is probably not being used by most to evoke images of the Holocaust for the purposes of disparaging lactation advocates and consultants, but instead to evoke images of a style of organizing that we have reason to think of as improper.
3) It is dangerous to clamp down on comparisons to the Nazis, because the more we do the more convinced we will be that they were the ultimate evil and can never be emulated in our lives. We will train ourselves to not judge groups too harshly in order to always save room for how harshly we want to judge the Nazis. But people are people, and it is always possible that they will organize themselves in a similar fashion and by refusing to LOOK we’ll let them get away with it.
4) I don’t have any experience with lactation consultants or advocates (some, but not extensive), so I don’t know for myself whether the organizational comparison to the Nazis is legitimate. I tend to think not, but I also tend to think that people are usually generous and open-minded and I keep getting proven wrong.
5) A claim that there are “boob-Nazis” out there does not amount to a claim that all lactation consultants/advocates fit the comparison being drawn. So offering examples/evidence of consultants or advocates who act in a manner completely undermining of the comparison doesn’t actually speak to the issue. However, if as it seems the term “boob-Nazi” is meant to apply not only to some select individuals who act particularly egregiously toward people, but to an entire organization (La Leche League, for example) then identifying group philosophy that specifically says something like “Be courteous and respectful and back off and don’t force your philosophy on others” then that goes a long way toward refuting that comparison/criticism.
You know, I hear this term all the time – Soup Nazi. Clothing Nazi. FemiNazi. – and I hate it. I totally agree with you that such use trivializes the term, in the same way as kids drawing swastika graffiti trivializes it. I wish people would stop saying “It’s just a word. I don’t mean anything about the Holocaust.” and wake up. They’re rarely just words.
Thanks for another great post.
Backpacking Dad- The Nazi’s didn’t invent the use of propaganda and they certainly weren’t the only ones who used it. America (among other nations) used it for their purposes (esp in WWII to drum up support for the war). The Soviet Union was also masters of propaganda. Fascism, socialism, communism, capitalism all have their forms of propaganda.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C0111500/ww2/american/amerprop.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
What it comes down to is that people are mean, and they want to cut to the chase. It’s easy to coin a derogatory term (that sits well on the tongue) about something beautiful, natural, and healthy by adding – Nazi to it. Yes, I think people can get carried away with being passionate about “spreading the word” of how beneficial nursing is, but that’s because IT IS good for the child and mother, it is scientifically proven that human breastmilk is superior nutrition for human babies.
The formula companies could be accused of distributing their own propaganda when they put their ads everywhere and distribute the “breastfeeding support kits” to nursing mothers. Yet no one calls the formula companies “formula-Nazi’s” do they? No, they call it strategic marketing. None of the breastfeeding moms call the formula feeding moms “formula-Nazi’s” either.
It’s pathetic and mean hearted and it’s usually the insecure person that feels the need to name-call.
@zchamu– That wasn’t supposed to be an actual overheard conversation. It was a corny way to show how one person can say something completely innocuous and the other person goes bananas.
Of course there are a-holes! Period. The world is loaded with them. There’s a huge difference between:
-An informational Web site on breastfeeding
-Asking a friend if they would like help finding a lactation consultant
-Recommending LLL, books or sharing personal experience which is how women have always helped each other directly
and
-Following a stranger around in a public place to berate them for using a bottle because you just can’t wait to tell someone how they’re doing it all wrong
After I commented here about Godwin’s Law, overreaction, perceived oppression and fear that women have of slipping back into secondary citizen standing, I read a perfect example of what I was trying to convey with my silly faux dialogue. I read an article in the SF Gate about VBAC (vaginal birth after cesarean) that spotlighted a pregnant women who decided that a repeat c-section wasn’t for her, then talked about anti-VBAC policies and how difficult it is to give birth vaginally in a hospital after a previous c-section.
The most popular comment said something to the effect of “Hey ladies, don’t let articles like this guilt you into vaginal birth. Giving birth is not an accomplishment. It’s not something for women to be proud of and all that matters is how you raise the child.”
It was totally irrelevant. There were no “shoulds” in the article and yet someone read it as if someone was trying to tell them that their decision to have an elective c-section was wrong.
I’d wager that for every one jerk that wants to give bottle feeders the stink eye, there are ten times as many jerks that think breastfeeding is weird and don’t want to have to see you doing it in public or who don’t believe you should do it at all after baby is 8 or 9 months old. Changing culturally ingrained attitudes is hard when people dig their heels in the sand to preserve the status quo. To be compassionate to status quo-defending folks, it must be so hard to be a rule-based person that needs external validation for being right or wrong and have the rules seemingly change on you. Raised to belief formula is superior or equal, then encounter public health campaigns that extol the benefits of human milk for human children? It must be very difficult for people who need external validation to feel as though they *were* doing it right and now they’re doing it wrong. The fact is that they’re not doing anything wrong but probably won’t be satisfied until they change “the rules” back to when they were right.
Public health and epidemiological info do not constitute rules. They share *information* that one can use to make their own decisions about what is right or wrong for them and for their families.
Proposed moral of the story: Avoid sanctimonious jerks who want to tell you how wrong you are. How’s that?
KC–I think you’ve misunderstood my comment, which is about what might count as legitimate argument forms and not about the issue of breastfeeding advocates vs. formula companies vs. moms.
It doesn’t matter if it’s true of other forms of organization that they used propaganda, not if the point is to evaluate whether the Nazi comparison is legitimate in an argument. Because it just has to be true of the Nazis, and well-known enough about them to be an identifier. Same with their facism, their party loyalty etc…if those things are true of the Nazis and are good identifiers of the Nazis then the issue in the comparison isn’t “Do we know what the Nazis did, or what they originated?” but is instead “is the comparison group legitimately compared along one or more of the identifying characteristics?”
What most of the critics of the Nazi terminology on this post have cited is a diminishment of the severity of the Nazi crimes for posterity. My point was that the comparison neednt’ be referencing the Holocaust or crimes at all, but may be evoking other parts of the Nazi concept. If that is what is going on, then to dismiss the comparison as illegitimate is to commit an argumenatitve fallacy: “You can’t compare anyone to the Nazis at all because no one is committing genocide.”
I’ll offer no psychological evaluation of people who use the term “boob-Nazi” or any other combination of terms with “Nazi.” I have no background in psychology and wouldn’t know where to look to make judgments like that.
BD
Okay, split your hairs if you will. My point in bringing in others’ use of propaganda IS the WHOLE POINT. It’s unneccessary to use that term and really shows callousness to make any comparisons to a regime of government that was made infamous for mass extermination of innocent people to the act of breastfeeding – a LIFE-GIVING act. It’s actually quite illogical to do so.
If people don’t like breastfeeding “propaganda” or the agendas of passionate lactivists, that’s fine (and I agree there are extreme cases on either side of the bottle). But there’s absolutely no reason to attach “nazi” to breastfeeding. Except, of course, it’s MEANT to elicit an emotional response. You don’t need a degree in psychology to know that. It is offensive and it shouldn’t be used in relation to breastfeeding.
I know another N word that once upon a time was a popular derogatory term, yet it’s been taken out of general use because of the emotional response it evokes.
It’s time to retire this term from any use other than it’s originally intended one – that to describe German historical ideology and practices.
KC–I’m sorry you think I’m splitting hairs. Really, I’m just trying to show that the argument against using the x-Nazi formula is fallacious, and you’ve repeated it without irony: “really shows callousness to make any comparisons to a regime of government that was made infamous for mass extermination of innocent people to the act of breastfeeding.”
If you don’t think it’s a fallacy then keep using it. You’re wrong, but I don’t have a horse in this race and I don’t want to troll the board by poking you over it.
Backpacking dad – I don’t have time to do a point by point rebuttal, but you are splitting hairs and playing a useless devil’s advocate by playing up minor parts of the comparison.
What are Nazis MAINLY known for? Mass extermination. There are plenty of movements with loyal adherents and propaganda that make much better comparisons.
There is a reason why 1. it’s disturbing and wrong to those who support breastfeeding (WE (the arguing people on this thread don’t have a “horse in a race”, another weird comparison, IMO, everyone has a vested interest in public health, including dads) and 2. it is disturbing and wrong to humanity, especially those whose families and ancestors were slaughtered by the Nazis.
Thia may be an exercise in banter to you, but you are missing the major points.
Sorry, I forgot to close some paretheses…there should be a closing after (the arguing people on this thread).
Sorry about the triple posting, but one more point. Did you see the early comment I made about Godwin’s Law? If no less than two Wikipedia entries exist about a comparison being fallacious due to its extreme nature, (regardless of to what one is comparing Nazis) please don’t say we’re wrong to call the comparison fallacious so casually, as if it’s an inarguable fact. Just because some parallels exist does not cancel out that the extremity of the comparison, due to the obvious overreaching horror of the holocaust, cancels out any minor comparisons you as an individual, not the authority on what is a fallacious argument, think may be legitimate.
Trying to find minor loopholes in major obvious points on a blog dedicated passionately to a certain subject is a form of trolling, IMO.
This is a great discussion!
I will add one point, though.
I’ve never used the phrase “breastfeeding nazi” to describe anyone in the LLL, or any reasonable/normal breastfeeding advocate. The only kinds of people I would apply it to are the ones like the examples I referenced above: The people who are intentionally cruel, the people who can’t see past their beliefs to realize that it simply doesn’t work for everyone. So while I agree that the use of the word is unfair, in my experience it’s only been applied to the assholes. However, obviously, my experience is not vast.
@zchamu: Unfortunately, I have seen a lot more flippant use of the term breastfeeding Nazi or boob nazi or breast nazi on twitter, in blog posts, in newspaper editorials, in magazines, and on message boards. If it was only used in isolated cases to refer to people that are intentionally cruel, I would still think it was inappropriate, but wouldn’t have been prompted to write a post about it.
Amen, Nazi is a terrible thing to call anyone, except an actual Nazi. And I have heard it thrown around very casually, referring to anyone who is pro-bf, usually by women who didn’t like hearing the truth, to be perfectly honest (“what do you mean giving one bottle of formula the day my baby is born could mess up breastfeeding? It’s my CHOICE!”) Certainly there are good and bad LCs, (as with all people!) but even the good ones have an uphill battle in this society, where the bottle is the cultural norm. Imagine having to tell moms that most of what they’ve been led to believe is actually not true — most women CAN bf, formula ISN”T as good, yes nursing a newborn every hour IS normal, etc., etc., And sometimes, the truth hurts, and people get defensive.
Language evolves and changes. This is just an example of that. I don’t believe it’s worth getting worked up over — you’re not going to change society. All you can do is stand up for yourself (so if someone directs a “nazi” phrase at you, ask them not t0), but going on some Crusade over it is just over-reactionary and feeding into the stereotype in my opinion.
@Tatiana: If I’m not going to change society, who should or who can? I think there are a lot of things about society that are worth trying to change and I think individuals need to be invested in helping to make those changes. I’m not a big fan of apathy.
It’s offensive, inappropriate and – above all – inaccurate. Thanks for this post.
just posted on this topic today on my blog http://www.pajamasandcoffee.com and am going in to edit that particular word out now- did not realize it may be offensive, so thanks for your post.
@ Mary McCarthy - Thank you. I just left you a comment on your post too.
@Tatiana — No one should have to ask others not to call them a nazi! Unfortunately, you said it yourself, the type of person who would use that term in the first place would likely see any request NOT to use it as more evidence of “nazism”…(feeding into the stereotype)
1. Godwin’s Law isn’t a logical fallacy. It’s a joke.
2. the reductio ad Hitlerum (also a joke) that IS a fallacy is a fallacy because it is the fallacy of association. So if someone relies on the evil of Hitler (or the Nazis) as the only reason you shouldn’t do something (be an artist, drive BMWs) then they have committed a fallacy. Because surely it’s not enough that Hitler did it; what is evil about it?
3. Assuming, or taking, x-Nazi comparisons as invoking the Holocaust’s evil (that is, taking the argument made by those making the comparison, as a reductio ad Hitlerum) and rejecting them is itself committing a fallacy: “You have invoked the Nazis. You must be invoking the Holocaust. Therefore you are wrong.”
4. I say I have no horse in this race because I’m not anti-LLL nor pro-LLL. I didn’t invent the phrase I used to describe topic-neutrality.
5. You don’t have to take my word for it that rejecting the Nazi comparison is a fallacy. You can study fallacies on your own. I’m not appealing to my authority when I say that there are argumentative fallacies being committed. But appealing to Wikipedia is definitely a fallacy.
6. MomTFH: I’m not playing up minor points of the comparison. I’m playing up the ONLY points of the comparison. There is no way that someone using the term ‘boob-Nazi’ is trying to make people reject LLL because LLL wants to commit genocide. Seeing a comparison that isn’t there and rejecting the term because of it is, unfortunately, a fallacy. You need better reasons.
7. Undoubtedly the Nazi comparison is offensive to LLL. But that would be the point, wouldn’t it? So being offended at being CALLED a Nazi really has no weight in the argument. Insults are supposed to be offensive. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t making legitimate comparisons. You have to find a reason to say that the comparison isn’t fair before you can reject it.
7. This isn’t an exercise in banter. If I were completely disinterested I wouldn’t bother. But people are wrong, and argue incorrectly, and rely on bad premises for believing what they believe, and it’s exactly those mistakes that I try to correct every day. The point of studying philosophy is to learn how to not fall for bad arguments.
Yes, it can be inappropriate although I’m with backpacking dad in that it’s more associated with neo-nazi attitudes rather than war criminals exterminating millions. I mean, seriously now.
But again, I think we’re missing the point. These discussions aren’t helpful until we go deeper and ask, WHY are these terms branded about.
The comments here alone indicate the naivity prevalent amongst so many of us – that all/most lactivists or LCs are ‘well-meaning’, and any woman feeling oppressed etc has a personal guilt problem, or that she is overacting to ‘innocuous’ advice. Reality check! lol.
We will find more compassion for one another if we realise and accept what’s actually occuring. Women ARE being ridiculed, oppressed, marginalised, and shunned because of not breastfeeding. Visit any popular mothering forum and mention the word formula. it is ugly, REALLY ugly.
@ Mon
Women are more often being “ridiculed, oppressed, marginalised, and shunned” FOR breastfeeding. All you have to do is do a simple Google search for any article related to breastfeeding in public, and you’ll see nursing mothers called “dogs” and “exhibitionists.” Even Bill Maher went on a sexist rant about how disgusting it was to nurse in public. For every mother who was given a dirty look for formula feeding, there are dozens more mothers who were kicked out of restaurants or shamed by their family members for breastfeeding their baby. What’s the term for those people? Formula-Nazis? There is no term because those people are the norm in our society.
To be fair, I don’t think it needs to be a competition about which “side” has it worse. Both face ignorance and jackasses, and women who choose either option should be faced with tolerance and understanding, and the fact that that doesn’t appear to be happening to either ‘group’ is the real issue here.
BD – what you don’t realize is that there are people who are hurt by the words, however you’d like to debate logic. Parenting isn’t an emotional investment unless you are truly apathetic to it.
There are many things that are emotionally volatile in this parenting gig, for instance the decision to work or stay at home, what parenting practices a parent decides to use (CIO or not; to spank or not to spank, etc), and HOW to feed a baby. Basically, no matter what you choose, you are going to be wrong in someone’s eyes and someone is going to criticize it.
However, it’s one thing to disagree with someone’s viewpoint, but it’s another thing entirely to attach outrageous disparaging remarks about it or make comparisons to it.
Why use the term “breastfeeding Nazi”. Why not “breastfeeding fascist”? Not necessarily better, but at least it doesn’t immediately conjur up a specific instance of the annihilation of innocent people.
In either case, it’s akin to using a racial slur. Public figures get into heaps of trouble when they slip and make a racial slur – no doubt the ethnic groups affected by it do not let it slip by unchastised. But hardly anyone bats an eye when they attach -Nazi to something. Why is that? Why has it morphed into something so banal that most people don’t give it a second thought? That’s one of the words that just shouldn’t be allowed to morph into something defamatory.
It is used for defamation of a person or a group of people (in this case over-the-top breastfeeding lactivists),but nobody is doing anything about it. Well, we in the blogosphere are and that, my friend is our whole point. We are rallying around those that are offended by it.
“In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel (for written words), slander (for spoken words), and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. It is usually, but not always,[1] a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).”
So, in theory, being called something defamatory like a breastfeeding-Nazi, could be grounds for lawsuit (not saying it is or it should be, just that it could be).
Also from wiki
“In common law jurisdictions, slander refers to a malicious, false and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images.”
Furthermore, false light laws are “intended primarily to protect the plaintiff’s mental or emotional well-being.”[3] If a publication of information is false, then a tort of defamation might have occurred. If that communication is not technically false but is still misleading, then a tort of false light might have occurred.
Tell me then, would anyone be willing to explicitly blog about a specific person with their name posted and call that person a breastfeeding-Nazi? Probably not for fear of libel.
Should it then be used in generalities either as a descriptor for anyone or group of people who might fit the description of a pushy, overbearing, pro-breastfeeding advocate? Short answer: no.
Mon – I’m not saying that overbearing attitude is not out there, but it doesn’t deserve to attach -Nazi to it.
Think of another term for their attitudes – that’s all we are saying. Take “Nazi” out of use.
Edited – I meant to say parenting IS an emotional investment, not isn’t.
I absolutely agree with The Feminist Breeder, bf moms get way more slack, it’s just accepted because bottlefeeding has become the norm (just try to find a card or gift bag for a baby shower gift with no bottle on it, or a doll without one as an accessory). That is why there are no “formula nazis” — because most of NA society is pro-formula (look no further than the low bf rates in Canada and the US for proof). And don’t get me started on the disdain or downright disgust mothers get if they bf past 3, 6, 9 months…Even the bf moms I know assumed I would wean to a bottle–after all, they all did, and many of them encouraged me to do so. I didn’t call them nazis though, they aren’t evil, just misinformed. So if there are some “pushy” lactivists out there, maybe it’s because they have to be (but I still maintain it’s mostly perceived — of course anyone advocating something will seem “pushy” if you really aren’t dedicated to succeeding at it anyway.)
@Andrea @zchamu @others…. I do think that there are people that step over the line in advocating for breastfeeding and advocating against formula. At the same time, people also need to have thicker skin and be more confident. There will always be people out there that will criticize something you are doing in your life. I think it is fine and even beneficial for people to disagree and to debate the pros and cons of different things. I just wish people could do it without resorting to name calling (e.g. Nazi) or berating people.
KC–it’s only defaming of the group if the group is supposed to be identified with the obviously false or inflammatorily false aspects of the concept represented by the term, i.e. genocidal practices. Or, if the group is supposed to be identified by the other aspects of the concept represented by the term AND THAT IDENTIFICATION IS BASELESS. You can reject the use of x-Nazi. You just have to do it by saying that the group is not like the Nazis in the aspects the comparison is pointing out. (I have no idea if the comparison is fair along those lines.) But you can’t reject it by referring to aspects of the concept not picked out by the term in the comparison.
If what you are saying is that you have illogical reasons to reject the use, then I agree. If you are saying that you have illogical reasons to reject the use, but that’s okay because the issue is an emotional one, I disagree. If it’s an argument logic rules. Otherwise he who feels most strongly wins all arguments. If you are saying that you have logical reasons to reject the use, and those reasons do not involve actually looking at the concept and comparing the groups to find differences, then I’m interested, but pessimistic, that you do.
Mon said: “But again, I think we’re missing the point. These discussions aren’t helpful until we go deeper and ask, WHY are these terms branded about.”
I am reading people discussing here why the term is used.
Mon said: “The comments here alone indicate the naivity prevalent amongst so many of us – that all/most lactivists or LCs are ‘well-meaning’, and any woman feeling oppressed etc has a personal guilt problem, or that she is overacting to ‘innocuous’ advice. Reality check! lol.”
Since you quoted my comment, I’ll reply. I made a clear distinction between offering information and following someone around the store (or the Internet) to berate them for needing and/or choosing formula. Didn’t I? I thought I did. I’m not sure I see how it’s beneficial for you say that we’re all naive. Do you really think so?
In fact, I actually addressed your first point about how this discussion is pointless until “we go deeper” by offering a theory of why it might feel like other women are oppressing them to the point of wanting to call them Nazis. I didn’t say that formula feeding moms who encounter pushy jerks have “personal guilt problems,” nor did I pathologize the experience of formula feeding at all.
I do, however, wonder how someone could feel so oppressed that they feel that the Nazis have a hold of them. I always hope that they’re just using the term in a tongue-in-cheek manner, which is the very, very simple message of the original post—stop using it flippantly.
Mon said: We will find more compassion for one another if we realise and accept what’s actually occuring. Women ARE being ridiculed, oppressed, marginalised, and shunned because of not breastfeeding. Visit any popular mothering forum and mention the word formula. it is ugly, REALLY ugly.
I would put a period after “shunned” to read, “Women ARE being ridiculed, oppressed, marginalised, and shunned.” Period. That’s a problem. Jerks are jerks. Annie says that it’s inappropriate to call such jerks “Nazis.” Some people don’t care about the use of the term in a semi-joking manner. Some of us find it offensive. Difference of opinion.
@Jill: You said “I do, however, wonder how someone could feel so oppressed that they feel that the Nazis have a hold of them. I always hope that they’re just using the term in a tongue-in-cheek manner, which is the very, very simple message of the original post—stop using it flippantly.” I agree. Absolutely. Until lactivists start rounding up the formula feeders and hauling them off to concentration camps, the level of oppression just cannot compare.
@Backpacking Dad: The Holocaust is certainly the most well-known thing that the Nazis did. But even if people are referring to neo-Nazis when they use the term breastfeeding nazi or boob nazi, I don’t think that is a whole lot better. I really think that neo-Nazis would be likely to do the same damn thing that the historical Nazis did if they had the means and opportunity to do it. That is why being a Nazi is illegal in Germany. I looked up a lot of definitions of neo-Nazi and they all talked about violence, genocide, glorifying what Hitler’s Nazis did, etc. None of those are appropriate comparisons to a lactivist, unless they start trying to carry out violent attacks on formula feeders.
When I think of pro-life advocates, I think of two types. There are those that feel abortion is wrong, don’t think women should have a right to choose, and share that message (sometimes politely, sometimes not so politely). Then there are those that throw bombs into abortion clinics and murder or violently attack doctors and nurses that work in abortion clinics. If lactivists ever go as far as the that latter group in promoting breastfeeding (e.g. bombing formula companies, murdering formula company executives, kidnapping doctors that hand out formula samples), then perhaps they deserve a label as horrible as “Nazi”. But as long as they are just sharing a message (whether well intended or not, whether well received or not), they do not deserve the comparison with Nazis.
zchamu said: “To be fair, I don’t think it needs to be a competition about which “side” has it worse. Both face ignorance and jackasses, and women who choose either option should be faced with tolerance and understanding, and the fact that that doesn’t appear to be happening to either ‘group’ is the real issue here.”
Nicely put. I totally fell into the “who has it worse” mentality. I’m kicking myself for that because I don’t think it’s really a polarized, black-and-white issue at all and you’re right… there are intolerant, proselytizing turds everywhere in all areas of life. Is it appropriate to refer to them as Nazis? Nah.
Mon said that we’re all naïve in thinking “that all/most lactivists or LCs are ‘well-meaning’, and any woman feeling oppressed etc has a personal guilt problem, or that she is overacting to ‘innocuous’ advice.” While I don’t think we’re all naïve here, I think this raises an interesting point about the cultural good-bad, right-wrong, winner-loser mindset of infant feeding.
For decades, formula was considered the superior choice of infant feeding by pediatricians. Breastfeeding was not the norm and the practice was battered by inaccuracies, mythology of medical origin and negative cultural attitudes. Women were not just not supported but were discouraged from breastfeeding.
Right now, women are supposed to be encouraged to breastfeed in hospitals. Lactation consultants are on-hand to help (or should be). I am personally in the “do what works for you” camp. It’s hard to find what works for you if you can’t find support for a range of options… exclusive formula, exclusive bf, part-time pumping, exclusive pumping, milk donors, supplementing with formula, etc. So making sure that women know about breastfeeding as an option is important.
Two things:
1. How one goes about sharing info about breastfeeding is important. I don’t usually reach out to offer advice—not my personality. I write about my thoughts on things but on a one-on-one level, I mind my own business and figure that if a friend wants help, they know where to find me. It’s not that I don’t care what they do, but I operate under the assumption that everyone makes the decision that is right for them with the info that they have. I’m more interested in putting info out there on a public level so women can take it and use it in their own decision making process.
Some do offer advice liberally and I’m glad some do because advice-givers have helped me in life. I can always take what I like from their info and leave the rest. Friend to friend, woman to woman info has saved me over the years.
2. Say you’re a person that has to feel as thought you’re following rules or you’re a person that feels the need to tell everyone what the rules are. Evidence that breast milk is best for human babies is shaping dominant cultural attitudes toward breastfeeding. Some would take that as a chance to be “right” and run around and tell others that they’re doing it wrong. I don’t personally know any of these people, but I’ve seen a few on the internet. They make me feel uncomfortable but I don’t consider them to be evil like Nazis.
@backpacking dad
The reason that Godwin’s Law and Reductio ad Hitlerum are jokes is because apologists like you try to defend ridiculous and offensive comparisons to Nazis as somehow logical and appropriate. It’s so sad and predictable, entire internet jokes are based on it.
I think your adherence to defending the term x-Nazi is a little too fanatically dedicated, as you seem to keep returning to it with such passion…like a NAZI perhaps??
Numbering your arguments doesn’t make you right. Saying you are right, no matter how big the words are, does not make us “fallacious”.
Casually using “nazi” is an inappropriate and offensive term to many, and it is not a true comparison. Saying things that are inflammatory may have a purpose, but comparing someone who supports a public health initiative to the most well known genocide in recent history is a sad thing to defend this passionately. I’d rather be this committed to, say, breastfeeding.
I used to use the term X-Nazi before I moved to Germany (in fact, my nickname in college was the Service-Nazi), but now that I’ve lived in Germany and learned more about the German and Jewish peoples, I think it’s a pretty appalling term to use. I’m pretty sure if you said it in Germany you’d have no doubt, from looking at the faces of those around you, that it’s completely inappropriate to use for anything but a real Nazi or neo-Nazi.
@Christina: Thank you for adding that perspective. I do wonder if the fact that I have many Jewish friends, lived in Germany, and am married to a German means that I have a slightly different perspective on this.
(Though, as for your numbering of arguments, I have to say I thought the second #7 was just as good as the first #7 and deserved its own number).
I also wanted to add I can’t believe you defended its use while admitting it was an offensive insult. Insults are, by definition, not good argumentation. Referring to the fact that your arguments are so sad that there is at least two internet jokes based on it that are well known enough to show up on Wikipedia does not make my arguments false.
I did decide to look up fallacies of argument, however. First site, did a “find” search, and found the Hitler comparison in less than a second! They consider it a straw man argument, which I can see. I can also see how it can fall under ad hominem. Trying to turn this into a philosophy of argumentation discussion, poorly, didn’t work. Not only is discussion of what is a fallacy irrelevant to how people interact socially when discussing breastfeeding promotion (which is what this blog is about!), it’s just a distraction tactic that is so predictable, again, there are entire web jokes built on it.
Thanks for posting this – I find myself getting irrationally upset whenever I see this term, both for the offense to those who have and do suffer at the hands of Nazis/neo-Nazis and for all the tireless women who give of themselves and time for their families to help others. It’s hard to defend oneself against vague accusations of “making someone feel guilty” and even harder on those women who are committed to helping mothers because they obviously care about mothers and their babies. Thanks for speaking out… eloquently as usual.
I’m going to throw a curveball here.
I think we’re (almost, hah) all agreed that the term “breastfeeding nazi” shouldn’t be used, due to its extremely negative connotations. Great.
But what about the attitudes that lead people to brand people with these names? Both the attitudes of the people who are disdainful towards breastfeeding and write off simple advocates with cruel names, as well as those who are horrible and judgmental people when it comes to the decision to breastfeed and treat bottle-moms like crap?
I’d love to see this kind of energy directed towards that debate.
@zchamu
I think that is a great idea. Any ideas where to start?
@zchamu
After writing that last comment, I re-read this post that I read a few days ago. I think it has some good ideas: http://obnurse35yrs.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/breastfeeding-bottle-feeding-and-somewhere-in-between/
In particular, I think part of the difficulty in knowing what to say and how to say it is this:
Absolutely great post! Thank you for stating the obvious, though it does make me sad that it has to be done at alll. Not only is calling some a boob-nazi for supporting breastfeeding horribly innapropriate, it’s also probably a sign of a deeper issue. That kind of insecurity should be worked out in therapy, not by tossing out Nazi to everyone who brings your insecurity to the surface.
@PhdInParenting: Sorry, I should have made clear before the comments were blended together: the Neo-Nazi point was just to wonder if that’s what the term was picking out. Later on I became convinced that it wasn’t, so that’s not what I’ve been pushing. You are absolutely right that it would make no difference: Neo-Nazis are just as genocidal as historical Nazis, and moreover they are similar along all of the other lines of comparison.
What I take you to be saying in the second paragraph of your comment is “lactivists aren’t like Nazis. Look at how they differ. So the label is inappropriate. Don’t use it.” And that’s perfectly fine. In fact, that’s exactly the avenue for rejecting the term that you need to take. But it is a different avenue than saying “it’s impossible for anyone to be as bad as the Nazis because they committed genocide, so let’s not look at the groups to compare them along any other lines. No lines are legitimate. Just don’t use ‘Nazi’ anymore.” (Not quoting anyone, just paraphrasing the argument.) It’s the latter that makes no sense.
I think the best way to talk about this is to treat it as a health decision, not a lifestyle decision, not a moral decision, and not really a parenting decision.
There is still stigma associated with making certain health decisions, but in general it seems to make the conversation a little more reasonable.
@Backpacking Dad – That is exactly what she did in the original post. Have a nice day.
@MomTFH @Backpacking Dad Exactly – that is what I was trying to say in the original post.
@MomTFH Backpacking Dad – That’s what we’ve all been trying to defend on her behalf. Perhaps I won’t win any awards for arguments based on logic here, but essentially I was trying to support the same thing that’s been said, and re-said and summed up. I’m sorry you didn’t see it that way and that I was fodder for your clearly superior intelligence and use of logical debate. I’m still trying to see how what I said was all that markedly different from what others had said (this is not an invitation to point it out by the way – I’ll eventually figure it out or I’ll move on).
@PhD in Parenting – Excellent post and thought provoking discussion (as usual)!
To anyone who might be curious – I’ve been on both sides – I desired to breastfeed but for two of my children I also had to use formula because of severe low milk supply. My breastfeeding days are long over. I support the decisions of what anyone chooses to do, though I’ve been able, through my example and not by pushing the issue, to inspire one of my sisters and my SIL to provide breastmilk in some fashion and I have respected both of their choices on how they made it happen (one chose to exclusively pump, the other only gave it 2 months before she went to the bottle of formula). No one on either side of the family chose to even attempt to give breastmilk in 2 generations (or more) before I did. There was no need to persuade argumentatively or be overbearing – they just knew there was another way to do things because they’d seen me do it. Had I not “normalized” breastfeeding for them, I don’t know if they would have been interested in even trying. I even emailed them some information when they had problems, and bought a few breastfeeding supplies (nursing pads and lanolin) to help them get started.
Two of my other sisters have had babies since my last was born and have also seen my bf my babies, yet in the end were simply not interested in trying to breastfeed. I did ask if they gave any thought to breastfeeding and said there are many benefits to both the child and the mother, and if they had any questions, I was available to ask. My oldest sister initially thought she’d try breastfeeding and ultimately decided not to. When I asked her why, she simply said it didn’t feel fair because she didn’t breastfeed her other 3 children. Fair enough. I let it go. Of course, this is the same sister who had later criticized me for bf my last daughter for 3 years – openly criticized me in front of others for nursing in her home (away from everyone in a bedroom). She is the only one in my life to actively try to shame me out of breastfeeding my older child. In all my 3 years of nursing my last baby, the only one who objected to it was my oldest sister – and I’ve NIPed everywhere – in restaurants, at the playground, at the county fair. I couldn’t get ANYONE to bat an eye at me publicly, but my own sister felt the need to say “it’s time to give that up, don’t you think?”
I didn’t push the issues with the two that decided not to and I don’t hold it against them or even feel sorry for them or their kids that they had no interest in trying. I made myself available and backed off when they weren’t interested. I even forgave the sister that was mortified that I was nursing my 3 year old and felt that I should be too.
The way I see it, it doesn’t have to be that hard to support another woman with how they choose to feed their baby. You provide some initial information, you see if they seem interested, and you let them know you are available for help if they need it. If they’re not, then you let it go and support them anyway.
That’s my experiences of supporting other mother’s decisions. I hope this helps someone else.
Of course it is rude and inappropriate to call anybody a Nazi for any reason. But there are some people who come awfully close to fitting the description and they give those who are passionate nursers a bad name. And unfortunately, these people are loud, and rude and unfortunately stick out as ugly representatives of the group. I give you an example below. This is a copied and pasted comment from my own blog. I ask if you don’t agree that this person is appears to be something of a Nazi?
______________________________________
Comment from Emily Jones:
“We must always remember that a mother’s physical and emotional well-being are probably more important in the nurturing of an infant that the delivery of breast milk and the hard cold fact is that sometimes breastfeeding stands in the way of a woman being the best mother she can be.”
That is the most selfish bunch of nonsense I have ever heard, and it seems to be gaining popularity. If my physical and emotional well-being trumped everything, I wouldn’t bother having kids in the first place.
Newsflash: kids are inconvenient. They take time and sacrifice to do what’s best. That includes breastfeeding, spending time with them, cooking them proper food, teaching them, etc. If you can’t be bothered to provide even their basic needs, don’t have kids.
You are right about one thing: Breast isn’t best. Breast is ONLY. Formula is not only inferior, it is unhealthy and potentially life-threatening. It was only ever meant as a last-resort feeding method for babies who would die from lack of breast milk. The only reason it exists as a “choice” now is because of the extreme marketing and financial power the formula companies have invested in seeing to it that more mothers buy their crap.
All this blustering and debating about oppression by breastfeeding advocates is nothing more than an admission of guilt for choosing a less-than method of feeding your children. If you are confident about your parenting choices, then you have no need to defend them.
@Angeline
Emily has a strong point of view. I’m not going to debate the merits of her argument, because that is not what this post is about. I don’t see her suggesting acts of violence against formula feeders anywhere in that argument, so no, I don’t think she appears to be something of a Nazi.
These types of strong views exist on lots of topics. You could almost replace “breast” with “Jesus” and “formula” with “sin” and it would sound like something you’d hear from the pulpit on a Sunday morning. You could replace “breast” with “keeping your baby” and “formula” with “abortion” and it would sound like the arguments made by pro-lifers.
Yes, I understand that strong opinions sometimes do have the potential to insight violence, like all the wars caused by religion and the bombings committed by pro-lifers. But I don’t think calling people with strong opinions Nazis will help avoid that type of thing. In fact, I think it is more likely to fan the flames.
Well said and sad that it has to be said.
@phdinparenting … Good response to Angeline re: comments from Emily. Excellent analogy. I often make the same one about pro-life and Jesus when speaking to friends. Thanks
I don’t care how strong someone’s opinions are or how intentionally cruel s/he is. Unless s/he intends genocide AND has a government and army to enforce that agenda, s/he’s not like a Nazi in any relevant sense. The ONLY reason to use a term like “breastfeeding Nazi” is to make a personal attack (that’s a fallacy ad hominem, for BD) and to shut down conversation. Shutting down conversation AND misdirecting it, as BD does, violate norms of argument–not logical norms, but those aren’t the only norms that matter.
After reading the pasted “then don’t have kids” comment, I want to paste something MomTFH stated:
“I think the best way to talk about this is to treat it as a health decision, not a lifestyle decision, not a moral decision, and not really a parenting decision.”
PhDinParenting- The Sunday pulpit/ proselytizing image works perfectly. I often wonder if someone could stand in front of a friend who is stressed-out, exhausted and crying and, rather than gently ask if they are open to working with an ICBLC or if they can help pick up some slack around the house for them so they can chill out and nurse OR simply accepting that their friend has weighed the risks herself and made an educated decision for herself and her child, stand there and shout “Well, motherhood is hard and if you don’t want to nurse, you shouldn’t have had kids!”
That’s not genocide, but it’s… whew. I don’t know.
zchamu (#74) What do you think? I guess I’ll just never, ever understand that type of black-or-white, extreme rigidity. I have tried. Where is the compassion? The love? The respect for each mother and her individual situation that is as unique to her as her DNA?
Re Angeline/Emily comment #84… she might not be a nazi, but I would have no qualms in calling her a bitch.
I have a lot – a *lot* – of friends and acquaintances with young children, and I’ve watched them go through the breast vs bottle debate. And it’s never, ever an easy decision. So anyone who comes to them with a black and white opinion is talking out of their butt, IMHO, and should be told as much.
Wow, my infamy follows me everywhere.
To those who would like to know the full extent of my opinions about the use of infant formula, feel free to visit my blog and read the many posts I have written on the subject.
Obviously in the comment section of a blog, I am not interested in going into a dissertation of the full scope of my opinion, so is it any wonder that a less-than-200-word comment is curt and lacking expansion?
In any case, since I’ve been “called out” so to speak, I’ll put in little more illumination. Ours is one of the ONLY cultures in which the attitude of “oh well, at least she tried” is acceptable, esp. where breastfeeding is concerned. In many other cultures, breastfeeding is accepted as the norm, and the only women who don’t breastfeed are those who physically can’t, or won’t; and those of the latter sort are generally considered selfish and lazy. The only reason we accept this in our culture is because formula feeding is so completely pervasive, that to suggest otherwise would impugn 85% of the population. It is culturally not acceptable to disagree with the established norm, hence the popularity of the term “boob nazi.”
Jill and I have had some small discussion about this topic on her blog Unnecessarean already, but I’ll repeat it again here:
“If a friend’s husband was not a good worker, if he only went to work on days he felt like it, if he was constantly asking his co-workers to finish his tasks, and was all the time complaining about how much he hated working, would you be as forgiving? If he then just quit, and lived off unemployment, would you take him a tub of ice cream and commiserate, and tell him “It’s okay, at least you tried. I support your decision to not deal with that stressful work stuff.” I somehow doubt it. Why, then, do women get a free pass on work ethic, be it natural birth, breastfeeding, etc?”
While I understand that different women have different situations, and I can’t possibly know every woman’s struggle and journey, I can safely say that ALL WOMEN have trouble. We all have bad things happen to us. We all have trials and struggles. I don’t think it is at all unreasonable to be a voice for persevering in the face of opposition.
And as far as it being a matter of personal choice, I disagree where it affects the health and well-being of children. Should smoking in daycares and schools be legal? It is the choice of the smoker, after all, whether she wants to take those risks. No, because we do not want her choices harming our children. It is the same with formula. Formula has documented health risks for children, and should never be considered a cavalier choice. It’s not like choosing between Coke and Pepsi, because Pepsi (as far as I know) has never killed anyone through contamination, diarrhea, starvation, etc. I would say it is more like the choice between smoking and non-smoking.
And before anyone starts arguing that comparing cigarettes and infant formula is a stretch, I might remind you that just 50 years ago, cigarette manufacturers were denying their product carried any health risk at all, and in fact, tried to convince us that it was healthy for us. 20 years ago, smoking was still allowed in hospitals. 15 years ago it was finally discovered that the cigarette companies had known for DECADES that smoking was harmful to people’s health, and yet covered up the evidence for years. And just last March, a study (http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20091003-18890.html) showed that “researchers reporting poorer health among formula-fed children too often shy away from including a mention of formula feeding in their titles or summaries,” thereby effectively hiding studies that show ill effects from the use of infant formula from those who are searching for it.
Is it any wonder some of us have strong opinions on the subject? Infant formula is injuring and killing babies all over the world every day. If a woman must take that risk on herself, that is her business. But every woman should know that risk exists, and they will never know it by patting them on the back, handing them a can of formula, and saying, “Well, you tried.” Women should be expected to breastfeed because that’s what we are designed to do. It’s not a matter of choice – it’s a matter of health and biology. If a woman is not prepared to accept that responsibility, then I still say she should not have children. Having children implies accepting a certain level of responsibility for their health and well-being, even at the expense of our own comfort sometimes.
And I’m not the only one. Every single scientific and health body in the world confirms what I am saying here: breast milk is the first and only choice for human infants, except where not physically possible. Infant formula has health risks, has killed MILLIONS of babies, and should only be used as a last resort.
I don’t think it is a simple matter of choice at all. I consider this issue so important, that I don’t feel like mincing words will make lasting changes. As pervasive and oppressive as the bottle-feeding culture is in our country, I don’t know that anyone will hear what we have to say unless we are shouting it. No one can argue that formula is just as good as breast milk, so the only obvious conclusion is that the entire debate just boils down to guilt and insecurity. And I, for one, will not be cowed by others’ insecurity for their less-than decisions.
(As always, a disclaimer applies to those for whom breastfeeding is not physically possible. That is why formula was invented, after all.)
And as a side note, the blog to which I replied originally (http://mommymythbuster.wordpress.com/2009/03/16/myth-24-breast-is-best/) was a diatribe supporting Hannah Rosin’s poorly-written article on how breast milk is not necessarily better that formula. More of the same propagandist tripe designed to make women feel better about using infant formula by perpetuating half-truths and stereotypes of breastfeeding advocates as pushy, overbearing judgmental types. The author of that article also wrote, in response to someone’s comment that formula has killed millions of babies in other countries,
“1.5 million babies die of formula feeding in Uganda because they do not have clean drinking water to mix with the formula (not because the formula is bad). …and this is not Uganda.”
The author has written a number of articles dismissing the benefits of breast milk and denying the dangers of infant formula, while at the same time quoting articles from and being sponsored by, of all people, the International Formula Council.
She, and everyone like her, continues to propagate the formula companies’ marketing line and tries to make those of us fighting against such tyranny appear as judgmental bitches. I would hardly take what she has to say as reliable opinions on the merits, or lack thereof, of the “breast is best” argument.
In response to Emily’s comments, I do agree that the reach and approach of formula companies is dangerous. They are deceitful and unethical. I touched on one aspect of this in my post on sabotage, but there are many many more examples and Emily is right to be wary about the objectivity of posts and comments by a blogger that is sponsored by the International Formula Council.
I think that the decision to breastfeed or not to breastfeed is an important one. It is something parents should carefully consider. If all other things are equal, breastfeeding is absolutely best and is the standard to go by. But other things are not always equal. Rather than trying to explain that at length here, I would ask you to hang on for my next few posts that I hope will go up today and tomorrow, where I will talk about this in more detail.
I just want to keep this thread going so I can be #100 and win a prize. Maybe something ironic, like a month’s supply of Enfamil. Yeah, I’m kidding.
I think the question that I have for Emily, who I think articulated why she feels so passionately very well, is “Could you or would you tell someone to her face that she is just not trying hard enough if she’s using formula and shouldn’t have had that baby if she didn’t plan on breastfeeding?”
Haaa haa ha… There are a whooooooole lotta things I think about other parents that I’d never say to their face. I’ve seen kids standing in the car (sans carseat – which is very illegal) and though I think to myself “how can you procreate when some smart people cannot” – I will not be saying that to directly to that parent’s face. Why? You never know who’s got a gun these days.
If whether or not you’d say these things to someone in real life is the measure of whether or not they should be said at all, then I’m pretty sure none of us would be allowed to keep blogging.
What FeministBreeder said. No, I would never say it to a woman’s face. What would that accomplish? It would create hurt feelings and destroy any chance I might have at maintaining a supportive and loving relationship with her. Besides that, if she’s already using formula, nothing I can say will change what has already happened.
However, what I *can* do is blog about the dangers of formula, and give my opinion on things. Sure some (okay, maybe a lot of) people may be turned off by my very straightforward approach. But there will be some out there who will say, “Holy crap I never knew that. Why did no one tell me that?” How many women know that using formula before 6 weeks increases a baby’s risk of dying from SIDS FIVEFOLD? How many women know that infant formula has almost singlehandedly maintained the infant mortality rate in developing countries? How many women know that just by persevering and continuing to breastfeed through trials and obstacles, they will significantly reduce the risk of infection, injury, and death to themselves and their babies? Do women know that using infant formula can really kill their babies? No. Granted, in the industrialized nations, that risk is fairly small. But even a small risk of death with infant formula is considerable when you stack it up against -0- risk of death with breast milk.
Someone posted this article on Twitter this morning: http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/93/12/2000.pdf
in which the public health concern that is artificial infant feeding is discussed. Two quotes from that article that spring to my mind are:
“…the American propensity to shun human milk is a public health problem and should be exposed as such.”
“Because breastfeeding is the biological norm, breastfed babies
are not ‘healthier;’ artificially fed babies are ill more often and
more seriously.”
I’m not the only one who holds this opinion. I’m just one of the few that is not afraid to say it.
I really appreciate ready Emily Jones comments #91, 92, and 96. It is impressive to see how a few sentences can be so distorted and misunderstood (in my opinion) by taking them out of context ( in Angeline’s comment #84). I certainly feel like I understand Emily’s stance much clearer after hearing from her. The initial quote from Angeline’s comment made Emily seem to be an unempathetic and judgmental zealot, but now I see her as passionate, strong, and wise.
Shoot. That should be “reading”, not “ready” in the first sentence.
I don’t necessarily agree that equating “formula feeding” to “choosing to live on unemployment and eat ice cream all day” is a hallmark of wisdom, but that’s me.
I agree that calling someone any kind of nazi is just wrong (unless you’re calling an actual nazi a nazi, in which case, go for it) but I think the whole nursing v. formula battle is best kept between you, your baby, and your baby’s pediatrician. Personally, I have been breastfeeding my daughter since birth and she’s 1 now, but it’s not my place to judge someone for going half and half or strictly formula. Can’t we all just get along- or at least mind our own business?
T – the trouble with minding our own business is that nothing ever gets changed unless people demand it. The Germans were minding their own business when the Nazis were murdering an entire population. If we minded our own business, there would be no domestic abuse laws. If we minded our own business, children would still be working in factories, and pets would still be allowed to be tortured. Some things just aren’t right.
As promised, a couple of follow-up posts on the issues that were raised here (and elsewhere):
The Scientific Benefits of Breastfeeding
When it is Not Breast
Not to cause trouble, but my first born baby would have died without formula. Read my story – here: http://raisingsmartgirls.wordpress.com/2009/05/10/my-breastfeeding-story-and-this-is-what-nursing-a-toddler-looks-like-while-studying/.
I was in the bioscience field for 12 years. I knew exactly what I wanted to do when I was going to have my baby. I was going to breastfeed. I researched, I took the appropriate breastfeeding classes. But I could not feed my baby enough.
From all the online “support” groups, I got the message loud and clear that giving formula was akin to giving my baby poison. Do you realize how extremely painful it was to do EVERYTHING physically possible to give my baby mother’s milk and it still wasn’t enough.
Do you know how devastating it is to know you are making so little milk your baby is being uric acid crystals because she’s dehydrated and she will die if you don’t give her something? And how devastating it is to hear others’ basically equate formula to poison? (Not saying anyone here did, but I have heard that comparison on message boards).
I was giving my child substandard nutrition and I knew it. I was so upset to the point of being irrational most of the time because of my daughter not getting enough milk to even pee and I was frighteningly close to PPD because of it. I raged at my husband, I raged at God, I raged at my baby for everything that was SUPPOSED to be natural and EASY and GOOD for my baby that I couldn’t do. I gave my baby formula through tears in the early days, often breaking down because my body failed me and my baby. I raged against the forces that deprived me of giving her mother’s milk and forced me to give her “poison”.
I was nearly convinced my baby was going to a have low IQ, or constantly be sick as a child or grow up to have some horrible disease that could have been prevented had I not given her a drop of formula. I had to get over the idea I was poisoning her and it was hard.
Some people will never understand. I don’t wish that on anybody. I had no choice though, and had to work through my breastfeeding grief (yes, GRIEF). I even went on a yahoo message group to help me process the breastfeeding grief I felt. I most likely should have been on medications too, because it was that bad. Had I not had the breastfeeding grief support group, I would have been.
It was only then I realized how many others were out there like me, wanting to breastfeed and couldn’t – being sold a bill of goods that it was EASY to breastfeed. For me it was a lie and I felt betrayed.
For me, the choice was “simple” – either feed the baby formula or let her die because of my principles. I had to ignore the “dangers of formula”. There was no choice in the matter. I wish formula wasn’t full of dubious chemicals, but I had no choice. Zip, nada, none. I even researched milk banks, but those are reserved for preemies.
We also can’t forget there is a population of women who can not breastfeed for deep psychological reasons – like those women who have been raped or molested. Often times the psychological trauma they have faced is so deep, and breastfeeding brings out feelings of extreme shame and they can’t do it any more so they quit.
According to the National Crime Victimization Survey there were an estimated 248,000 rapes and sexual assaults against victims over the age of 12 in the US in 2001 (and that’s been about the same for many years now). I highly doubt that many of them will breastfeed without some great difficulty if they even try.
There are even women who might want to, but are pressured or even forced by their family members out of it. Believe it or not, some women are still oppressed by their spouses or their families and can’t do a damn thing about it because the psychological pressure is too great.
It’s easy for many to criticize the use of formula without giving one bit of consideration to the circumstances by which a woman comes to use it. I do realize it’s substandard. But there are many, many good women out there who have given it their all or who have wanted to but it was not good enough and they suffered psychologically from it. Some women have scars they can not leave behind because they never got it to work. Ever. They live with that breastfeeding grief and they still feel it for years after the fact. I was able to breastfeed my 3rd baby for 3 years, and while that nursing relationship healed many things, I have never forgotten the experiences and guilt I have experienced.
Anytime I re-tell my story, I remember the pain. And then I look at my oldest daughter, and remember that she never had so much as a cold her first 13 months of life, and that she is far advanced in her abilities and she’s only in 1st grade, I realize that formula didn’t make her sick and it didn’t make her stupid. I have given up the worry that formula is going to give her cancer, because you’re not going to get out of this world without some terrible disease at some point in your life. It’s a fact of life and environmental factors contribute to that, whether you were formula fed or not. Formula is such a SMALL factor of all the environmental exposure to toxins you will get simply from all the “industrial progress” that man has made over the years (just think of the chlorine in our water, the toxins of your the industries in your area, the genetically modified foods that are sneaking into our food supply). I think some perspective is needed here.
I am a HUGE supporter of breastfeeding advocacy. But because of my experiences, sensitivity must be used. I do not judge any woman who uses formula or who never wants to breastfeed, because I know the truth. Breastfeeding, while natural, is NOT easy and even when you have the advice of experts, it does not always go the way you planned it to.
Just remember that compassion is the way to go. I would err on the side of caution and assume there are mothers out there reading your words who are devastated by the inability to breastfeeding and use compassion and sensitivity in defending your position when you advocate breastfeeding.
I’m now off to read what PhD in Parenting had to say.
KC, thank you for your story. So much. You’re amazing.
I agree that compassion should be the norm. Posting an angry diatribe condemning other women for decisions made that are no one else’s business is the same thing as saying it to their face. How wouldn’t it be?
I say save the ball busting for real oppressors and give our sisters a break! I believe we’re all doing the best we can.
Thank you for bringing up sexual abuse, KC. The “shut up and try harder” mentality is so hurtful to people who have been victimized. To me, it’s akin to telling a rape victim who is pregnant that she should just perservere through the pregnancy whether she likes it or not. Or how about finding out that a woman wants a c-section after a previous traumatic birth and shaming them for a) wanting one and b) doing something “wrong” (should have perservered and pushed harder or shouldn’t have gotten that epidural) during their first birth. I’ve seen comments like this and I’ll never understand them. I don’t even want to try to understand that mentality anymore.
In comment #101, formula feeders (or maybe formula companies) were loosely compared to Nazis, so the thread just ended according to the aforementioned Godwin’s Law.
Between the original post and the comments, it all came full circle. Twice.
Jill – I believe that it is my business, because it involves the health and well-being of children. Regardless of how I feel about it, it would be one thing if I was sending out emails to women telling them what horrible mothers they are, but it’s entirely another to post my opinion on the subject on my own blog. The answer to being offended at someone’s opinion is not to read it.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I do not believe in relative morality. I believe that some things are always right or wrong, regardless of personal circumstances. Everyone thinks differently; it’s not bad, it just is. That is why we have our own blogs, after all. So we can each share our own way of thinking.
As to comparing formula companies to the Nazis, I was not. I was illustrating the dangers of looking the other way for fear of offending or being all up in people’s business.
KC – I’m very sorry about your situation. I understand the “grief” you’re talking about. It was the same grief I felt after I didn’t breastfeed my first son, and the same grief I felt over not being able to birth him from my body and instead having the Vaginal Bypass surgery. All those feelings are legitimate and rational. I don’t think anyone would or should make you feel bad about what you couldn’t control.
Having said that, we as a country must know that the dismal breastfeeding rates are far more a factor of women not having the education, or having some strange unfounded bias against the “dirty” action of it, rather than having some actual physical reason that prevents them from doing it. We already know that, statistically speaking, in the United States, women are simply not choosing breastfeeding because they don’t know the benefits, or because they think there’s something wrong with it. Of course there are stories like yours, and of course there are victims that just couldn’t put themselves through it – but more overwhelmingly, a mother isn’t breastfeeding because she just doesn’t know any better, or doesn’t have the support/information she needs to keep going.
Breastfeeding is NOT easy for any of us. I don’t know a mom who has ever said, even when their baby latched on from Minute One, that they never had a single issue with it. It is a totally natural thing that, ironically, doesn’t come “natural” to any of us. We’ve all had terrible struggles, and the people who were committed to helping us succeed were very valuable people in our lives.
If you were really unable to breastfeed, it shouldn’t matter what any judgmental ignoramous says about it. You know what you went through, so you should know that you did everything you could, and no one in the world can expect any more than that from you. If they do, then who cares about them? Clearly they have their own issues to deal with. People can only affect you if you let them.
But I have to say, that I am personally grateful for all the people who pushed me a little harder during the times that I felt like I really couldn’t do it. I’m really grateful that those people stuck their neck out for me and my baby.
I hope you continue to find peace and healing with your situation, and again, I’m sorry.
I started a really long reply on here, so I turned it into a reply turned post.
Since this comment thread already goes on forever, I might as well post it here.
PhD in Parenting has a hopping post about the term “breastfeeding nazi”. I also have a problem with that term, which I have written about.
After we dispensed with some devil’s advocate apologist nonsense in the comments, the conversation devolved into familiar territory. People telling horror stories about the two extremes: the most judgmental breastfeeding supporters (you know, certain message boards *roll eyes* have people tell people formula is poison), and the other alternative, (women who don’t want to breastfeed shouldn’t have children), and that breastfeeding should never be discussed in public. See Mommy Wars Bingo if you want to fill in some squares.
Anyway, this is my reply turned post. If you want to read more than a hundred comments, you can get all the nuance of this particular comment thread, but this ismy most recent reply:
Wow, none of my breastfeeding posts got this many replies!
Breastfeeding, like every other health issue, must be discussed with nuance. It does not have to be avoided in the public sphere, and treated like a secret between the mother and her pediatrician.
KC, I am sorry about your grief about not being able to breastfeed. My closest friend, whose birth I was a doula for, had a similar situation. There are options, like the SNS (supplemental nursing system), available to provide nourishment (either in the form of pumped breastmilk, the mother’s or donated, or formula) while still supporting the breastfeeding relationship. For my friend, this worked for a while, but she ended up giving formula from a bottle after trying for months. With a hospital grade pump, and several consultations with lactation consultants.
What I am trying to say is that there are interventions that will nourish the baby if the baby is losing weight inappropriately when the breastfeeding relationship is not working adequately, for whatever reason. Supporting breastfeeding and lactation consultation are definitely not at odds with making sure babies survive optimally. If a baby is not getting enough nutrition, then obviously the health outcome is not ideal, and there should be a different health option, which would be to use an intervention like formula.
No responsible breastfeeding advocate would tell a mother that she is feeding her baby poison if her baby is not getting adequate nutrition over a physiologically significant period of time. (Or if there are any other medical reasons why she cannot or should not breastfeed).
This is the equivalent, but opposite, of the breastfeeding nazi remark. It is ridiculously out of proportion and meant to be hurtful. Do both extremes happen? Yes. Do they need to dominate every breastfeeding conversation? No.
But, remember, I have heard nurses, family members, doctors, and women in my own family say a baby is “starving” after one failed latch or during a crying spell on the first day, even if there has been other successful feedings. I have heard people say a baby is “starving” because the mother’s milk isn’t in yet, just the colostrum.
There is no reason why this can’t be handled with accurate information and sensitivity.
As for the sexual abuse and breastfeeding argument, this article in the journal Lactation says that women with a sexual abuse history report wanting to breastfeed more than those who don’t. This article stresses the wise tenet from the article linked to above: never underestimate or overestimate a woman’s desire to breastfeed. Again, each situation must be dealt with with sensitivity, appropriate health treatment and accurate information. We cannot speak for other’s sexual abuse experiences, just as we cannot speak for other’s lactation experiences.
@MomsTFH:
“accurate information and sensitivity”
Both very important. Both very lacking. Unfortunately.
MomTFH – Oh, yeah, I know the SNS all too well. It was often used in vain, as it would make it harder for the baby to latch on, or it would come out of her mouth, spilling my hard earned pumped milk out, or it would take years for her to get anything because it wasn’t in the right spot. I used it many times, but very few of those times were very successful. I’d also gotten fed up enough to throw it across the room at times (only when it was filled with formula) after 15 minutes of struggling to get it in her mouth correctly. Then my husband would rescue me and take the baby and give her a bottle while cried in the bedroom.
Of course, the more I stressed about getting it (the SNS) right, the worst things always got, especially when the baby would recoil from my strained efforts to put the plastic tubing back in her mouth if it slipped out or if it wouldn’t flow right. I was more nerve-wracked using the SNS on the breast than not.
Thank you everyone for all the warm, encouraging sentiments. I don’t personally think I’m amazing, but I knew I was determined to try and make it out as best I could.
If you’d like to “meet” the child with whom I struggled so much with, you can read about her in my post here:
http://raisingsmartgirls.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/meet-m/
Despite our great difficulties in the beginning, she turned out to be an quite an amazing child if I may say so myself.
Thank you for this post. As the Director of Breastfeeding and Consumer Relations for Lansinoh Laboratories and as a Certified Lactation Counselor and a La Leche League International-trained breastfeeding peer counselor (and former breastfeeding and pumping mom), I’ve taken plenty of heat for my support of breastfeeding as the normal and ideal choice for mom and baby. I am hopeful that the people who use words like “nazi” to describe the profession that means so much to me and has been important in so many women’s lives will read your words and think before they open their mouths. There are different people in every profession and while there are those who take an extreme and polarizing stance, there are others like myself who promote the extreme importance and try to educate people on the issues and practical techniques while not judging, alienating, or bullying. Name calling is good for nothing in my opinion and takes time away from trying to help the person in need.
Gina Ciagne
Breastfeeding Advisor and Counselor
Lansinoh Laboratories
http://www.bymomsformoms.net
That word is NEVER appropriate.
I agree that the term “nazi” is hateful and should never be used to describe someone who is passionate about their beliefs. It’s up there with racial slurs and the use of the word “retarded” or “retard” as my pet peeves.
Seriously, what kind of moron calls something “retarded” to the Mom of a kid with special needs?
I couldn’t breastfeed for a medical reason. Nobody ever cared what that was, they just made sweeping judgments. Now Jake is 13 and I can see that in the end, it didn’t really matter. He’s happy and healthy.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there’s no excuse for being hateful about it.
I agree 100% with your post. There’s no excuse for that kind of name-calling. It’s offensive and doesn’t reflect well on the person saying it.
That said, I can understand the frustration and hurt that a woman feels when she’s accosted for not breastfeeding. I desperately wanted to breastfeed my son and was devastated that I was unable to produce enough milk and what little I had dried up inside of three months despite all the measures and help with lactation consultants. For me, as someone who wanted to breastfeed, I am deeply offended when I see blanket criticism directed at mothers who feed their babies formula. There is a very bad tendency among some of these women to judge others without even knowing the whys.
No, not everyone who is a lactivist behaves this way, but the few who do give the entire group a bad reputation. Two wrongs don’t make a right, though, so it would be nice if we could come to a place in society as a whole where we can discuss our differences without making personal attacks.
Thank you for your post. I could not agree with you more! You have guts to speak up against people who forgot the past and take things too lightly.
Unfortunately, I noticed that this term “Nazi” is loosely thrown around in the US; perhaps, because the civilian population was not as directly affected by the horrors on WWII. I grew up in a country, where every family lost at least one family member in that terrible war, and during the time when the generation of survivors of that war were still around to tell their stories (now there is not many of them left), so when I was growing up callign someone Nazi or a fascist was considered to be the worst and most hurtful comment to make. This being said, one of my close friends here in the US explained to me that it does not have to mean real “Nazi”, but the philosophy behind Nazism, such as torturing someone against their will, so it can be applied to anyone engaging in such behavior. His explanation did not make it better; it only upset me more.
I totally agree that it is disrespectful to people who suffered during Holocaust or WWII because of Nazism/Fascism. When I was a PhD student, we had a class called Journal Club, and the person in charge was jokingly called “Journal Club Nazi”. Since my family was affected by holocaust and WWII, every time I heard people giggling about this, I had cold running down my spine.
Especially I think this is totally inappropriate to apply this term to people who advocate breastfeeding. It is the same as calling you parent a name like that if they are telling you what to do. It’s disgusting, and it’s the worst kind of name to call someone. I am usually for linguistic freedom, and not restricting people’s vocabulary, but in this case, we must never forget, and we must hold our tongue our of respect…
I think the word Nazi is used to highlight the authoritarian attitudes of some breast advocates (or any other group etc). I thought that was commonly known but the comments here suggest otherwise.
People are offended by anything these days so i am not surprised some people find it offensive, it really doesn’t bother me. Its just a word, it cant hurt you.
Plumbob, there’s a word for someone with an authoritarian attitude. It’s “authoritarian”.
It’s fortunately not up to you to decide what is worth getting offended by for other people. I can think of many words I don’t want me, people who share my values or my family called, and the biggest genocidal villains of the last century certainly make that list.
Get a life. Political correctness to a fault.
The militant breastfeeding mafia have infested the mainstream and here in the UK many of their storm troopers patrol hopsitals like Ilsa the Wicked warden emotionally destroying women who have babies that are failing to latch, who have no milk, whose nipples are red and stinging.
After leaving hospital with our darling daughter in less than 48 hours we were back after an accusing community midwife found our had lost 12% of her weight. Baby was crying hysterically, rooting around like a mad thing, chomping her sleeve and daddy’s sleeve. The midwife said she might be put on a drip. We were the evil baby starvers, the failed breastfeeders.
At hopsital a breastfeeding nazi prodded my wife like some Josef Mengele lab assistant. Without asking permission she tweaked my wife raw nipples, hooked her up like some factory-farmed cow to an industrial breast pump. She didn’t tell us what the gameplan was, when we might be able to leave. Baby was latched but with milk no coming through until the third or fith day in a ‘normal’ woman, how on earth was this breastfeeding malaky ever going to work? It’s not. It’s a lie. A total load of utter nonsense. It’s as nutty as fruitarianism or somesuch extreme eating regimen.
I learned that in many health systems or cultures people use, variously, water, folk formulas, standard formulas, serums, are other methods to bridge this big milkless gap. The breastfeeding nazis tell you that this will bugger up your milk supply so starvation is the best policy, that babies only need a tiny bit of food and can happily exist in a hysterical mess for days on end. Complete nonsense. They can’t. They get sick, dehydrated and hungry FAST.
As someone with an interest in science I wondered how on earth some of the benefits of breast feeding could even be proved. It would be unethical to take, say, 50 women and tell them to bottle feed and tell another 50 to breastfeed and compare results. So all the ‘benefits’ are based on surveying and observations and as a a social science graduate I realised that none of them were able to seperate out breast milk from sociologial factors.
Breast feeding mums tend to be the ones with the time, space and affluence to make a go of it, the ones who read to their babies, sing to them, constantly interact and when the babies are weaned they get a good diet. If you took a middle class family that gave all the middle class advantages to their kids, aside from breastfeeding, I’d bet the outcomes would be barely any different. Breast feeding is one factor out of millions that impact a child’s outcomes.
Statistics for breast feeding are skewed. Around 90% of women leave hopsital breastfeeding but within to weeks the numbers drop rapidly, mostly due to screaming babies that never stop rooting for food. Women get a distorted picture that the vast majority now successfully breast feed and they if they fail they are the poor odd one out that’s now going to witness a child developing a low IQ, ear infections, obesity, diabetes, etc.
I was breast fed and was sick every winter with headcold and ear and chest infections. My wife was a bottle baby and speaks half a dozen languages and rarely gets sick. We both eat a healthy wholefoods diet and engage in many natural health practices – we’re not brainwashed by formula makers and big science. No way.
None of this is to say ‘breast isn’t best’ but it’s massively unrealistic for millions of women who are made to feel like worthless crap, intentionally or not, by the nazis and all illness has an emotional component so, yes, nazis often make new mums sick and harm babies. It’s that simple.
David:
I’m sorry for what your wife went through. Despite all of that and as horrible as it is, that does not make those people Nazis. Did they cart your wife and baby off to a concentration camp and gas them? I don’t think so.
Your comment is also, unfortunately, packed full of myths. I say this not to diminish the experience your wife went through, but I say it for the benefit of lurkers who may otherwise think there is truth to the information you have presented on milk supply, colustrum, benefits of breatsfeeding, etc.
Ok then, how about milk freaks? Seriously, I wholly support breast feeding as a better alternative to formula, as does my Pediatrician wife who breast fed our childre. But I’m getting really tired of seing nasty, stretch-marked boobs hanging out in public. There is NO NEED in anyone ever knowing a woman is breast feeding if care is taken. Sure it’s natural, but so is peeing and I’d get arrested for peeing in public. How about a little consideration for the rest of the world who doesn’t want to see your business hanging out in public?
Jef:
I’m not going to bother rehashing here what I’ve already said in other places:
What gives you the right?
Covering up is a feminist issue
What gives me the right? well, the fact that I am a citizen of this nation and your rights do not trump mine. As far as covering up, common sense is obvious. I DO NOT advocate the “go hide and feed” mentality of alot of ppl who are oddly freaked out by breast feeding.
In truth, my main issue is that ppl who intentionally try to get in other’s faces about their breastfeeding right are doing more harm than good. I’ve come in contact with many ppl who view it more as a political stance than the natural method of caring for a child. Just like any issue, your opinion is best for you, but may not be the opinion of others for many reasons you may not know.
As far as the lady below who questions why ppl may have an issue with seeing a stranger’s breast in public if men don’t look at each other’s penises in the restroom…well, that’s because the urinal conceals each man and there are no body parts out in the open.
Seriously, breastfeeding is great. It is natural, healthy(for mom and baby) and should be protected from morons trying to stifle it. But just a little bit of discretion would go a very long way to get the point across about it. We’re not dealing with a violent war or refusal of civil rights. Those issues need a different type of show of support, this is a natural thing that represents a beautiful bond between mother and child and should be treated as such. To support the right, mother’s should take the high road. Forcing the issue just makes it more divisive. You’ll catch more fly with honey than with vinegar.
So, there’s a big difference between “militance turns people off” (which I do agree with) and “hide your nasty boob, I don’t want to see it” (which is more divisive than the militance point itself).
But, why should mothers have to ‘take the high road’ when others don’t bother and say things like ‘hide your nasty boobs’?
sorry, I disagree. I’ve never gone around confronting ppl about their “nasty boob”(sorry the ill-placed humor came out wrong) like many of the over the top “advocates” of breastfeeding have, And no, being a man it’s obvious I’ve never breastfed a child, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand the practice that one goes through in doing so. After 4 children, who were all breastfed, as well as having lived with a lactation counselor(mother) and pediatrician(wife) I probably have a much better understanding than most men.
But my point still remains, I’ve met very few breastfeeding activists that were civil about other ppl’s opinions on it. It seems like more an issue of ppl looking for a cause and the desire for drama than someone just concerned about feeding their child. And please dont give me the defense of you not getting respect for your beliefs. No one can stop you from feeding your child or changing your opinion about it, but how about just a little consideration for the ppl around you that don’t want to see your private parts? I’m not even arguing against breastfeeding, if anything I agrue for it. But ppl that are intent on forcing their will on others do the cause for education on it no good.
Either way, this discussion is pointless because I won’t change my opinion about not wanting to see some woman’s breast out in public and you don’t care and will intentionally feed in public out in the open just because you can. Yes it is your right, but how about my right not to have to see it, and yes averting my eyes and constantly being on guard to do so is a violation of my rights.
Having to avert your eyes from a legal practice is a violation of your rights? Take that one to the supreme court. I’m sure they’d love to hear it.
@zchamu: It is amazing what some people regard as “rights”. I’ve had numerous business students (whose assignments I docked) try to argue with me that there is a “right to profit”. No, that may be a goal, even the primary goal, of being in business, but not a right and certainly not a right to be held above basic human rights.
@Jef,
There’s a lot of things I don’t want to see in public, but I don’t take that as a reason to pretend I have some created “rights” that are being violated. It is not your right to be kept from viewing anything you find distasteful.
Many people found interracial couples to be disgusting to look at, and used that as an excuse to keep interracial marriage illegal. Many people don’t like to look at the handicapped. I guess we should keep those ugly gimps behind closed doors. Wouldn’t want you to have to avert your eyes from a nontypical face or a deformed limb.
There’s a woman who walks up the street almost every morning, near my medical school, not wearing enough to cover her belly fat, ill placed tattoos, or her stretchmarks. (All of which I have myself, incidentally, I just choose to hide them in public.) She isn’t making an important health decision by showing her bare midriff, like breastfeeding moms are. Should I start ranting about my right to be protected from viewing her flabby, stretchmarked, tattooed belly?
See how ridiculous you sound? It’s not about you, believe it or not. (Brace yourself, I know it’s hard to realize that). And, considering this was a post about people who viciously attack people who promote breastfeeding, which you say you and your pediatrician wife (really? did you show her this thread and your response?) support, how can you defend pretending this is about you, having to “constantly be on guard” from having flabby boobies forced in your face? Who is forcing whose will on who? And for what justification?
Jef, I’m going to assume you’ve never breastfed. So you have no clue how difficult it can be to nurse an actual moving, curious, human child while trying to keep them under cover or otherwise hidden from view. There is also the little matter of latching and unlatching.
Annie has an awesome post on the true meaning of using “discretion” you might want to read too…
I always find it interesting how men compare breastfeeding to peeing, yet have no trouble lining up side by each to pee at urinals. If they don’t look at each other’s penises at the urinal I see no issue in not looking at women’s breasts in public if they bother you so.
hells yes!! go go go!!!
Jeff – you really have a problem with seeing women’s breasts? Why?
A penis isn’t being used to feed anyone. I hope not, at least.
thanks for proving my point. Maybe if you’d quit focusing on being a rights driven feminist and more on being a member of society, there would be a better discussion on breastfeeding and its benefits and stories about “feed-ins” and debates over showing in public wouldn’t exist.
I’m done here but I’ll make my point…you obviously care more about forcing your will on others that educating ppl about a healthier lifestyle. As usual when discussing or hearing ppl discuss breastfeeding, I get the distinct impression that here it is more a subject of feminist positions than parenting.
And yes my wife laughed when I showed her this because even she says the biggest opponent she has in trying to get young mothers to commit to breastfeeding are the middle aged women breastfeeding activists who are more political activist than mother and give it a bad name.
Either way, I support breastfeeding and think it’s definitely better that formula, but I do believe that proper discretion(and the post with the pic of a woman in a burqa is a beautiful way to go over the top with your desc) may not be the law, but it is respectful of those around you without the desire to see your breast.
The same old defense of other women wearing low cut tops just sounds more like jealous feminist than someone with a valid poit. This over the top feminism is hurting the cause of reintroducing breastfeeding as a primary method, but as i said, I get the distinct impression this is more about getting to have a cause than it is about actually breastfeeding.
I will not respond or read anymore as this is getting tedious and lame, so feel free to rant and man bash to your heart’s desire…..but as far as the “Nazi” label…Yeah I think it fits- Nazi: n, …b : one who is likened to a German Nazi : a harshly domineering, dictatorial, or intolerant person. Please tolerate other ppl’s desire NOT TO HAVE TO SEE YOU BOOB HANGING OUT.
So yeah, feminazis, breastfeeding nazis, hippies without a cause…whatever it is, sounds more like feminism is more important than motherhood some of the time.
Am I the only one who has actually never seen a “boob hanging out” when I’ve seen a mother NIP???
As someone said, it’s not about you. It seems to me your personal hang up over the potential glimpse of a nipple is more important than a child’s right to be fed. That’s messed up.
Ah. Troll. Also? Lame.
Jef, translated:
Harshly domineering and dictatorial…like, let’s see, someone telling women that they can’t feed their kid the best way (like your wife did for all four of your kids), and accusing them of having bizarre ulterior motives (like “feminism” – we all know how motherhood and breastfeeding are such a stereotypical feminist cause – WHAT?) , and being COMPLETELY intolerant of their breastfeeding in public. Right.
Please tolerate MY desire to control your behavior and your feeding of your child! Please tolerate my HARSH ranting about your motives! Please ignore my attitude when I complain about your ugly stretchmarked boobs! Please tolerate my domineering attitude about your feeding choices!
Breastfeeding is not a cause, but harassing women about it is?
Oh, the irony, it burns!
Yeah, I think that guy is just kind of a $&#@-head.
I do have to say that I find it disturbing having to constantly separate myself from the bad examples of lacto-moms. It’s getting like being part of an infamous club everytime people find out I work for lactation education. We really need to work on the public image to further the education and standing instead of being such separatists of the opinion that it’s our way or the highway. My husband feels exactly like that guy, and I understand the point. It’s not about “seeing” anything, it’s more about the attitude people are putting out there.
How about separating yourself from guys like Jef? Who is putting out the attitude? The people who legitimately support a healthy practice or someone who is ranting about ugly boobs and mysterious feminist conspiracies?
Seriously? I wish I wasn’t subscribed to this thread.
There are more people on this thread ranting about militant breastfeeders than there are militant breastfeeders. I have never met anyone who shoves their boobs in anyone’s face, or who is more concerned with feminism than feeding their newborn. And I trained as as midwife. Calling people names like “Nazi” and painting them to be evil boogeymen does NOT make it so, and is even worse coming from people who claim to support breastfeeding.
Scientific literature researches obstacles to breastfeeding. Most common? My husband will have an issue with it, think I’m less sexy. Next? Being judged for it, especially in public, by trolls like these. Not mentioned? Those damn middle aged militant boob in my face thrusting political feminists!!
The hostility from these comments is seriously upsetting and disturbing. And is ample proof that posts like this are necessary.
@MomTFH:
I find the comments annoying and upsetting too. My hope, however, is that they are not reflective of society overall. My hope is that generally most people go about their lives without taking particular notice of how a woman chooses to feed her baby. At least my experience with nursing two children whenever and wherever has shown me that most people do not care. There are jerks out there, for sure, and I think that this post is a magnet for them because they are the ones who go off to Google searching on the term “Breastfeeding Nazi” and land here.
Oh, good point about the search engine thing. Ha, well, I’m glad they’re ranting on your poston it instead of my older one.
I just can’t imagine telling people who are defending a fairly non controversially healthy practice that needs encouragement that they have a bad attitude while calling them names and being outrageously judgmental and rude.
The world is full of shallow, mean, hypocrites. I am still an idealist, however, and it still makes me frustrated when I see it.
Hi, I use that term sometimes, meant to be silly, and never looked at it like that.
Sorry ladies! Won’t be using that again!
I completely agree. I had heard the term lacti-nazis which I did not appreciate. I am Jewish for one and don’t really find Nazi humor funny. But I also find it insulting that if you are passionate about or advocate for breastfeeding you are given such a degrading name. You don’t hear too often of Breast Cancer Nazis or Autism Nazis. I wonder why. Not really.
Thanks so much for setting that straight. It obviously applies to all the other expression where the word nazi is used as a prefix to show that the person shows pedantry and fanaticism on a certain subject. (spelling et al) English not being my mother tongue, I was always shocked to see how lightly this word is taken and used on the internet but also, increasingly, spoken around me, especially, but not only, by younger people. Incidently, I’m actually German and although I do not live there any longer, still believe not many Germans would so losely use this term.
On the other hand I was also pretty taken aback by the way some people react and attack to breastfeeding, not only, but especially in the US (in Germany, it’s has always been just a normal, natural thing). The vehemency that some breastfeeding advocates display seems to me only a reaction to an absurd display of intolerance and even hate by some people who clearly need to get a life. how sad that your VERY important post received exactly those kind of reactions.
Some people never learn. They would indeed have made great Nazis.