I just finished watching the Dr. Phil show on stay-at-home moms vs. working moms that featured bloggers like Jessica Gottlieb (@jessicagottlieb) and Heather Armstrong (@dooce). Although the show touched on some important issues, I found it rather polarizing and one-dimensional. There were a few short mentions of women who work part-time or who do shift-work and share raising of their children with their spouses, but for the most part it seemed to focus on women who are at home all the time or women who are at work all the time.
Some points that need to be made
There are a few points that were made on the show and need to be emphasized. There are others that were severely lacking from the discussion.
- Dads are parents too: With the exception of one woman who mentioned that she worked in law enforcement and shared child care activities with her husband, there was no mention of these women’s spouses at all. Shouldn’t there have been just as many men in the audience defending their decision to go back to work or their decision to stay home? I think it is ridiculous that it is still a novelty for men to stay home and that our society still assumes that a working mom = kids in day care. Read more: Feminism, fathers and valuing parenthood.
- Employers need to be supportive: Dr. Phil briefly touched on being a supportive employer and ensuring that his employees (or at least the female ones) are able to put their kids first. He said that he tells them not to miss any important events with their kids for work and encourages them to leave to be with their kids for important activities. More employers need to do this. A lot of employers act like it would be a hardship. It does take a bit of creativity sometimes, but if you want the best employees and want to get the best out of your employees, you need to take into consideration the fact that they have a life outside of work and that life doesn’t always happen only in the evening and on weekends (that goes for both child-free employees and parents).
- Maternity leave is still lacking: I don’t think parents should have to choose between staying at home and going back to work when their children are small. I think that the government should have laws and support systems in place to allow a parent to choose to stay at home with their kids. Read more: SAH or WOH? How can we stop restricting mothers’ choices?
- Affordable quality child care increases women’s economic opportunities: Whether a woman chooses to use it or not, ensuring affordable quality day care is available does increase women’s economic opportunities and by virtue of doing that it also improves outcomes for children (less poverty, better educational results) and creates greater equality (more women are primary breadwinner, more men choose to take leave). Read more: Pauline Marois: Profile of a feminist, mother and leader of social change.
- Build the right village: Whether you are a stay at home mom who is suffering from isolation or a work out of home mom who needs to be able to trust the people that care for her children, creating a village is so important. It isn’t always easy to build that village because the natural villages that used to exist have disappeared. In my opinion, if you don’t work at building that village, you will suffer over time. You need people you can turn to for adult conversation or to give yourself a break. Read more: It takes a village to raise a child.
This issue is far more complex than can be dealt with in a one hour Dr. Phil show. It is far more complex than saying that staying at home is right or going to work is right. It is also more complex than saying that every choice is equal.
Our choices
People make assumptions all the time. I am a working mom and most of my clients and friends that do not know my husband just assume that my kids must be in day care. That is not the case. Here is what we have chosen to do:
- I quit my job: I was always a model employee (okay, except maybe when I worked for my dad). I always put in 110% at the office. I feel the need to impress my superiors. I knew that if I kept my job, I would constantly feel conflicted between my parental responsibilities and my work responsibilities. I knew that I put enough pressure on myself to do well and I didn’t need a boss putting pressure on me too. So I quit my job and started my own business. That way I only take on as many clients as I feel I can handle. I can take 2 months of vacation each year. I can take days off to do things with my kids. It isn’t a free-for-all and I do have responsibilities to my clients, but a lot more is in my control than it was when I was someone else’s employee. Read more: A working mom seeks balance.
- I stayed at home during the early days with both kids: I stayed at home for 3 months with my son and for 6 months with my daughter. Being at home during the early days helped with bonding and made breastfeeding easier. I am the primary breadwinner in our family and that was the longest amount of time that I could afford to take off without the bank taking our home away from us. Sure, there are people out there that say “you could have sold your home and moved into an apartment“, but losing my home just so that I could stay at home instead of my husband seemed a bit ridiculous. He is a capable parent too.
- I worked at home a lot: When I first went back to work, I worked at home a lot. That allowed me to be there to breastfeed and to have lunch with my kids. I could take breaks to spend some time with them. I didn’t lose time with them due to a commute.
- My husband is a stay at home dad and my mom helps out: My husband is a stay-at-home dad while doing his Masters degree (done!) and now his PhD. My mom comes over 2 days per week and helps out. So, over the course of the week, there are generally 2 days where my mom takes care of the kids, 3 days where my husband takes care of the kids, 1 day where I take care of the kids, and 1 day where my husband and I have them together.
- Our kids start school at three years old: We have found a wonderful, small elementary school that we love. It has small class sizes, a family feel, and has full-day preschool starting at 3 years old. We decided that we would enroll our kids there starting at 3 years. Our son is in his third year there now (he is in Kindergarten this year) and our daughter will start next year. That allowed us to have our kids at home during their first few years, but also allows us to pursue our careers and have them in a trusted and nurturing environment.
I won’t pretend that the choices we have made are the best choices or the ideal choices in absolute terms. They were the right choices for us. They were choices that didn’t involve catering to society’s assumptions about which parent should stay home, about needing a job to be productive member of society, about traditional day care being the only alternative to staying at home.
We need to start thinking outside of the box. Parenting shouldn’t be about stay-at-home moms versus working moms. That is so one-dimensional and boring. Let’s look instead at the societal conditions that are preventing more creative solutions and that keep boiling it down to a shallow mommy war.
{ 92 comments… read them below or add one }
Dads staying home is against the will of the Creator. God wants men in the office, stapling things, else Hell, damnation, and surely the End Times will follow.
Oh, absolutely! Stapling things is very important…..
(This sounds like something my stay at home husband would say.)
Well this goes without saying.
My stay-at-home-husband would concur LOL
like i said over on jessicas blog…this is an argument that is never going to be won. not ever.
i’m not going to go into the whole essay that i wrote on her blog. but i’ve been on both sides. now, i work a few hours per week. but all 5…FIVE…of my children are in school full days. four of them are in middle school and my youngest is in kindergarten. so my working is not having an impact on any of my kids. only my own little bank account.
my whole issue w/this is…
if you can afford to stay home. then you should. at least for the first few years.
if you can’t, then you shouldn’t.
but. and i’m going to reiterate what i said on jessicas blog. BUT. the moms that, when their baby hits 6 weeks old, they put them into daycare and go back to work…even when their husband can support them perfectly fine. when the choice is made that the job is more important than the child. that is where my ONLY problem with this whole thing is.
other than that…it’s all about choices. and none of us will ever agree with the others choices.
@melissa:
You said: “BUT. the moms that, when their baby hits 6 weeks old, they put them into daycare and go back to work…even when their husband can support them perfectly fine. when the choice is made that the job is more important than the child. that is where my ONLY problem with this whole thing is.”
Couldn’t you equally say: “BUT. the dads that, when their baby hits 6 weeks old, they put them into daycare and go back to work…even when their wife can support them perfectly fine. when the choice is made that the job is more important than the child. that is where my ONLY problem with this whole thing is.”
I am so tired of this being a women’s issue. It shouldn’t be. It is a parents issue. There are usually two of them. Not always, but usually. I don’t understand why one gets judged and the other gets a free pass.
i guess, when i’m responding to this, i’m looking at it from the type of life that i and the vast majority of people i know, have.
but yes. the dad is MOST DEFINITELY equally responsible. he did partake in that special hug which created this human being.
it is interchangeable, absolutely. whichever situation is best suited for that particular family.
so let’s call it the way it is. whoever gets the bigger paycheck with better benefits works. the other parent stays home and takes care of the kids.
the subject, however, is moms who stay home or moms who work out of the home.
@melissa: *special hug* …. first time I’ve heard it called that!
well, you see, my 5 year old wanted to know about how babies are made. (this is SO not the post for this!!). he was…maybe 4 when he asked about it. and i told him that mommy and daddy give each other a special hug and it puts a baby in the mommys tummy. it worked…for a bit. but yesterday, he asked if daddy had to be naked when we did our special hug. *head desk*
omg. and he is learning all this stuff from a kid in his kindergarten class. did a whole post on it.
see, told you it wasn’t for this post!!
@melissa: Technically you don’t have to be naked…
technically, you are right.
well, not completely naked, at least. technically.
Melissa, I’m the one making more money and benefits and yet I’m the one who has to leave work and hurry home if my todler gets sick. I don’t know how fair that is, but it seems like one of those unspoken rules implied by who knws who and that I have to follow…
I’m a full-time work-outside-the-home Mom…. And I really like working. I also like being a parent. I disagree with the opinion that if a Mom CAN financially stay home then she SHOULD stay home… she might find a great daycare (mine is fabulous) or have a loving relative (like grandma) to take care of her kids during the day, letting her be free to do something she enkoys (like work!)
Saying that “every mother should stay home” is like saying “every woman should be a nurse” or “every woman should be a teacher”… not everyone is born with the natural ability to stay home, be a good mother, support a husband.
It is certainly evident that many parents could benefit from better/improved parenting skills… society could benefit from more fabulous daycares (like mine) or fabulous schools (like phdinparenting’s)…. and working mothers could benefit from more options such as the ones outlined in this post and Elizabeth’s comment.
I work for a big company with not-so-great-benefits. We don’t even have true maternity leave for parents — just medical leave and FMLA. However this year, the company started employee support groups and I am one of the leaders for the Working Mothers Support group. Besides supporting each other we are advocating for changes. So maybe I and my fellow working moths will be able to make some changes at our company — at least we hope. It’s amazing how oblivious we have found some of our executive leaders to be when it comes to supporting working mothers… our CEO did not even realize his company did not offer true maternity leave to mothers. Other executives didn’t realize that some managers forbid telecommuting or any kind of flexibility in arrival or departure time.
Anyway, choices is the way to go and that’s how I’m going to continue to encourage our group to approach this!
This is such a wonderful post. I am starting to see more dads out at the playground with their kids on a weekday morning, which is great, but there i still such a long way to go– and I’m totally with you, we need to be asking the MEN these same questions.
For my husband and I, the decision was fairly simple. I had always wanted to stay home with my kids for the first few years, he wholeheartedly supported that. It made sense both financially (his jobs brings in about 3x what mine would) and personally (he probably would not be able to handle being at home with a young child. I can… though barely lol). But the conversation was had. I’m hoping more will have that conversation, as well.
As for Melissa’s comment above– I know many wonderful mothers who simply would not be able to handle being at home all day with a baby. It would drive them crazy. They are better mothers because of their ability to go to work every day. (I would argue the same is true of many fathers, like my husband).
Ultimately this is a decision that can only be made within that family unit, and should not be judged from without. And we need so much more societal support for families in general to help make this whole issue easier (like employers being more family friendly, better parental leave, and on-site daycares which allow parents to be able to see their babies and even breastfeed them while at work– I have a friend who can do this right now, it’s awesome).
marcy,
my sister would rather work. and she does. so, i get that. i just don’t agree with it. but that’s ok. we don’t have to agree on everything, right?
If everyone would just work on being happy and stop judging other people to make themselves feel better about their own lives the world would be a much better place! Take all that energy and work on bettering yourself. I find that the most judgmental people are usually the least fulfilled. Seriously, I’m so sick of the Stay-At-Home vs Working Mom thing. Do what makes you happy and is best for your family. Because at the end of the day, if Mom and Dad are happy the kids will be happy too!
@Liz: I partially agree and partially disagree. I agree that different things will work for different families. But I don’t agree that “if Mom and Dad are happy, the kids will be happy too!”. That isn’t always the case. Selfish parents often neglect their kids. The parents may be happy, but what are the kids getting from that? I’m not saying that double-income families are neglecting their kids, but I don’t think we can wholesale say that happy parents = happy kids.
One question is whether unhappy mom/dad = happy kids. What about the mom who does want to work and resents dad or baby because she is not the primary breadwinner? I never saw myself as a “stay at home mom” and I’m the primary breadwinner. My husband would never agree to staying home. He loves his job and he just wouldn’t “get” why it would be better for him to stay at home, necessarily. I maybe could have not worked…if we sold a car and got a smaller house in another neighborhood, but I just didn’t see myself as a full time mom. I waited a bit later to have kids (over 30) and I didn’t see stopping my career I worked for 10+ years for just a few years until the kids went back to school. I am VERY fortunate that I’ve been able to have a bit of the best of both worlds in that I work AT home and we have a nanny so I do get to see the kids more than if I worked away from home (like yesterday when I took a 15 minute break and played football with the boys) and I can oversee, but even if I didn’t have this option I don’t think either of us would have stayed home. I 100% agree with you that it’s not just a mom thing but a parent thing, though. It’s just not so cut and dry for the working mom vs. full time mom thing, though. I hate to think people think I’m a worse mom simply because I didn’t choose to stay home with the kids, though. We have great quality time together and a very loving home. Kids can be just as WELL-adjusted with two working parents as they can be NOT well-adjusted with a full time parent. It really depends on the whole situation.
@Nicole:
I would NEVER say that unhappy mom/dad = happy kids. In fact, there is research that shows that the parent’s mood does affect their children. I have written about that previously:
You are not a perfect parent
Where’s your smile
But I also think it is more complex than saying happy parents = happy kids. Not necessarily the case. I do think there are people who are so selfish that perhaps they shouldn’t have had kids. If someone always needs to put their own needs and wants first, then I don’t think they are the parenting type.
All parents deserve to have some selfish moments or some “me time” in order to preserve their happiness and their sanity, as long as they are respectful of their children’s needs in doing so (e.g. choosing a trusted caregiver).
Thank you for this thoughtful post on the real issues. I’m really tired of the media generated “mommy wars.” Being able to have a choice in the matter is a privilege and leaves out the real issues – paid family leave, flexible working environments, a family friendly work policies, affordable heathcare and childcare, etc. For those with the privilege (and this really isn’t a choice for many women, specifically low income families – those traditionally left out of this type of debate) to be able to choose between paid work and the unpaid work of staying at home, then I think we should support one another. One size doesn’t fit all. I also think you have a good point about happy parents vis a vis happy kids. Perhaps the issue isn’t the SAHM vs working parent. Maybe it is a question about whether or not you are engaged in your child’s life.
Nice thought-provoking post, Annie. Full disclosure – I’m a full-time, work-outside-the-home mom with a full-time, stay-at-home-dad husband, with our three children. I have crappy maternity benefits but a supportive working environment for getting home when I need to be home and for pumping. So I’m fairly lucky, all things considered.
However, while I agree that dads almost always get a pass in the home vs work debate, and while I’m really sick of the debate itself, I think it IS more important to look at mom’s role – not from the pointing-fingers perspective but from the how-can-we-do-this-better perspective. It’s a biological fact – mom IS more important to a child in the early months/years. How many moms do you know of who’ve had to supplement or wean completely due to an early return to work? How many moms do you know of whose bonding or relationship with their children suffered due to a return to work? Babies need their moms. Dad is helpful, but is definitely second best (in most cases – not talking about illness, abuse, etc).
That said, I think the answer is not to simply push mom to stay home. It’s time for a paradigm shift. How can moms combine working and infants? What kind of telecommuting or alternative work schedules are possible? How can we improve maternity benefits? Job-sharing? On-site childcare or acceptance of children in some workplaces? It’s time to think creatively. Hopefully your post will encourage the kind of change that is accepting of the biological norm of mom needing to be with her baby while still encouraging her to pursue a career.
@Elizabeth: I do agree that it makes more sense for the mom to be at home during the first few months (nine in, nine out?) and that is why we chose to have me stay at home for as long as I could. However, for a toddler or preschooler, I don’t see any reason why it should be a mom instead of a dad. I think both parents need to spend a significant amount of time with their children to promote a strong bond. I do know moms whose bonding or relationship with their children suffered due to a return to work. I also know plenty of dads whose bonding or relationship with their children suffered due to a return to work. I see many stat-at-home moms despairing that their child won’t go to Daddy on the weekend. That is because Daddy hasn’t been given the opportunity to develop a strong bond in a lot of cases.
Yes, I’m thinking more of the infant stage where mom is more “important.” Beyond that, I agree that the focus should be on BOTH parents and their work/life balance choices.
I agree with you that men need to be brought into this conversation much more seriously. As a working mother, I’ve always found my workplaces very sensitive to my parenting responsibilities. BUT one thing that has made it very hard for me to work is that my husband’s workplaces are not sensitive to his parenting responsibilities. So, for example, any time our son is sick, I’ve been the only one to stay home with him. My workplace understood, but it was really difficult to have no one to share the burden of missing work. Or if I occasionally need to work late, I can rarely count on my husband to leave early to pick up our son. I think really for both parents to be able to work outside the home, it takes two parents with flexible jobs. (Or local grandparents, but we don’t have that.)
Outside the biological reality that pumping is inferior to nursing (immunities are developed at the breast, breastmilk composition changes according to the baby’s needs – not the pump)
How many fathers actually WANT to be home as full-time caregivers to infants though? Where is that question, and qualitatively, what do they think being primary caregiver means – parenting or free time to write that novel they’ve always wanted to write?
My partner admits he doesn’t have the multitasking skills and maternal calm I have that allows me to still function on next to no sleep (our youngest has reflux and I haven’t had a full night’s sleep in 2 years). I know part of that is personality not gender roles. When I suggest returning to work and us splitting childcare duties he looks a little wild eyed.
My ex and I traded time when we had one child and he was close to 3 years old. We worked alternate shifts. He always worked more hours than I did and when we started homeschooling I was working 20 hours a week. Once there were two children his interest in primary or shared caregiving went out the window. After we separated his interest in parenting didn’t return until he was living with another woman (and I’m thankful their step-mom is as involved as she is).
I know plenty of awesome involved fathers. They don’t want to be primary caregiver. What they want are more opportunities to telecommute and work from home so they can be more involved, but they don’t want the “primary caregiver” role. What I’m seeing around me are more and more young families making the decision to find work that allows them that kind of lifestyle. It often involves a community that welcomes children as participants and ends the isolation of “home” too.
I say we need a revolution that stops marginalizing the FAMILY altogether. The social experiment of the suburbs has failed dismally.
@mudmama:
What you say about breast milk is true. However, those same immunities and other benefits are available when you nurse 5 or 6 times per day and give 3 bottles a day.
With regards to whether men want to stay home or not, I think the same could be said of women. I know plenty of women who do not want to be full-time stay at home moms. If a family decides that it is better for one parent to stay home, I do not think it automatically needs to be the woman that does that.
I HATE the Mommy Wars, thanks Dr. Phil. My mom was a work a lot single mom (out of need, not want) and I am a stay at home mom (out of want ). I do wish people (men and women) would feel like they could stay home if they wanted (and could afford it). See the list written in the blog.
Such a great post. I think its important for both parents to be involved, for employers to be more sensative to family life, and for parents to be creative with their time. We have been lucky that although both my husband and I work, we both have supportive work envioronments and family and friends to help us with raising our daughter. Because my maternity leave sucked, my husband and I both stayed home during the early days – I was home for the first 7 weeks and then my husband was home for the next 7 weeks. I was able to pump for a year and a half at work without comment from my employer. We didn’t want a traditional daycare and were lucky to have our neighbor, my sister and my parents watch our daughter while we worked. My husband and I were also able to stagger our shifts so that our daughter wasn’t away from us for more than six hours. She started a small montessori school this year that all three of us love where she goes from 9-3pm. It isn’t perfect but it works for our family and our daughter is happy (which is our biggest concern).
All good points! I especially wish there would be more recognition of stay-at-home-dads (mine, like yours, stays home with our daughter while working on a Master’s). If more SAHDs are shown to be a normal, logical choice for some families, more men will be willing to take on that role, or at least take on more responsibility for the care of their children.
I have no problem presenting the 100% folks–and I think that both get a bad rap at times, which is (mostly) not deserved. But a lot of the folks I know are trying to find the-in between, so it is puzzling as to why they completely ignored the vast field of compromise in between the two full-time options.
As for SAHD, I think part of the reason few men take on this role is upbringing; my husband was raised by a dad who had to work and mom who wouldn’t, even when her kids were in high school and college. This ingrained in his mind that the role of the man is to work a stable job even when it isn’t what he really wants to do. He sees the ill logic of this, but has a hard time overcoming it. The other aspect that society doesn’t really talk about is how many women tend to aim lower in their professional goals (even before they have children), and therefore not be as equipped for a position which can adequately support their families alone. This may seem like a sexist statement, but lately I’ve seen several articles talking about this: how women’s financial goals tend to be lower (they shoot for lower salary ranges and are far less likely to negotiate for higher salaries when being offered a job), and even women entrepreneurs rarely set goals that are as lofty as their male counterparts–which almost guarantees that their success will be more modest.
Men need to break past the mindset of the past, but women also need to put away their reluctance to be bold, tactically-oriented, and self-promoting. Doing so will help both men and women to have truly equal choices, both at work and in the home.
i agree – different horses for different courses and please let’s put the mummy wars thing to bed. recognition by society and employers of the family as the employable unit rather than as an obstacle to productivity
Well done! Thanks for writing this. I am a working mom. It shouldn’t vs. the other. We as women and parents should support each other!
@Marcela: I do agree in general that women and parents should support each other. I do think it is appropriate, however, to have discussions about the pros and cons of different choices. I do a lot of that here on this blog. My issue with the Dr. Phil show wasn’t that the issues were being debated. My issue was that it was too one-dimensional/patriarchal/kyriarchal in its construction.
Amen, amen, and amen! Seriously. I really think that what we need as parents (regardless of our gender) is flexibility and options. Maternity leave, parental leave, affordable childcare, and flexible work arrangements should all play a role. If working full-time is working for you, great. If staying home full-time is working for you, also great. But I truly believe that a lot of parents fall somewhere in the middle. We want or need some income. We enjoy having pursuits outside of home. But we also like to spend time with our kids and be there for them when they’re young.
I think that the ‘mommy wars’ are mostly fabricated, anyway. They keep it one-dimensional because it’s easier and sells better than having an actual nuanced discussion, or facilitating real change that is family-friendly.
“I am the primary breadwinner in our family and that was the longest amount of time that I could afford to take off without the bank taking our home away from us. Sure, there are people out there that say “you could have sold your home and moved into an apartment“, but losing my home just so that I could stay at home instead of my husband seemed a bit ridiculous. He is a capable parent too.”
Thank you for this. I went back to work when my daughter was 6 months. My job does not provide any maternity top-up and at the time, I was making far more than my husband. His job does provide a substantial top-up to parental leave. I got the same comments – that if I *really* wanted to stay home, we could manage it. Sure we could – but honestly, the benefits of ME staying home rather than my husband didn’t outweigh the sacrifices we’d make (which had more to do with paying more in expenses to live in the country than anything to do with “luxuries”).
This upcoming maternity/parental leave we’re going to have me stay home for longer – we found the transition at 6 months tough as my daughter wouldn’t take a bottle and wasn’t eating many solids for obvious reasons. We’re figuring an 8-month/4-month split – and while I’d love to take the full year, my husband really wants time at home with his kids too… and why on earth would I want to deny him something so special?
Anyway… thanks for this. I feel the guilt of going back to work “before I have to” and it’s always nice to hear the voice of reason…
@Juliette: You’re welcome…and I always love being called the voice of reason!
Thanks for posting this, and for looking at a more nuanced view. I also am one of those in an “alternative” situation, where my husband/co-parent and I both work from home in a family business, and both of us care for our son. It kinda works and kinda makes us want to tear our hair out at times, and it’s meant that we don’t earn very much, but it was a conscious choice we made to be together as a family all day long, particularly for me as the mother in these (still) breastfeeding years. I don’t say this at all as a judgment of people who make different choices, by the way. Our business isn’t something either of us is passionate about, which we used to think was essential to our psychological well-being (working for something we believed in), but we’ve managed to channel our need for fulfillment into non-paying or low-paying opportunities (writing, churchy things, etc.). I wouldn’t tell every parent that they need to work from home, particularly if their career choice or circumstances don’t allow for that, but I like to throw this option into the discussion, because I find that many parents don’t know that it is an option: that is, that both (if there are two) parents can work, and both can stay home.
I still feel that mommy guilt when I don’t love, love, love being around my toddler all day, though, and don’t do astonishingly cute activities with him like I see some other SAHMs (not working from home) manage, and when I chose twice-a-week preschool to give my husband and me child-free work time, but…well, I try not to let it get to me.
Oh, gosh, I’m feeling all nervous about what I said. Let me just reiterate that it might not be an option for all (most) parents to work from home and care for children full-time at the same time. I acknowledge that I write from a place of privilege, that we are able to afford to work from home because of our skills, background, small family size, etc. I really just wanted to echo your sentiments, that the work out of the home vs. stay at home debate often dichotomizes the two options and leaves fathers out of the picture, but that there are other options available. Sometimes families wondering what to do when kids arrive could find a better balance for working and childrearing if they asked questions and considered a fuller range of choices, and I just wanted to be another example of what is possible.
Ok, I think maybe that was clearer.
You know, I have had so many people ask me why don’t I do my job from home (it could definitely be a tele-commute role) so I don’t have to pay for child care. They don’t seem to get that I couldn’t actually do justice to my job OR my kids in that set up! I’d still need child care. (Besides, my employer doesn’t “do” that anyway…) It’s wonderful you and your spouse are able to work together in this manner and have some balance.
I really don’t get the dichotomy that exists or why it’s perpetuated by the media, except that it reinforces stereotypes giving those who “control” capital a benefit. I know that sounds/reads conspiratorial but I’ve tried to find other reasons & it’s the whole “private/public” thing that benefits capitalism (extreme capitalism) the most. At my house we parent together, I don’t get this discussion, it seems so class based.
Hi,
I love what you wrote. When i used to work outside the home, I constantly felt guilty for not being there for my kids. My son was raised by my parents. When my daughter was born I decided to stay home. I also found that the bosses at work were not flexible and understanding about my family. At work what counts is to produce. Family does not count. Yes I agree, that companies should be more understanding and flexible when it comes to family. I too have drawn the conclusion that working from home is the best thing to me. Right now I have my own buisness and i absolutley love it. I love creating new stuff, taking decisions and having a flexible time. I love the way you have organized the babysitting, this is a big ey-opener for me and an inspiration. Thank you for sharing this.
Galit.
I think we have to try to do what is best for our family. It may be ideal for a parent to be available to the children all the time, but if being at home all day makes a parent unhappy, then that is not ideal either. I love that I have the option to work my own hours and do most of my work at home (when I AM, working…admittedly I don’t have much work these days). Anyway, I think it’s awesome if a mom can work and still spend lots of time with her children, but if she doesn’t want to work, then I think it’s totally fine to just be a stay at home mom, too! (either way it’s work, right?)
I do a bit of everything. Go into work once a week and work from home the rest of the time all so I can primarily be a stay at home mother and avoid childcare for my daughter. Every child is different, but I truly believe she would really struggle if I was away from the home anymore than I am now. And although I didn’t think I would enjoy staying at home that much I find that on the days I’m in the office, those are the days that I feel like I’m missing out, not the other way around.
I was also on that show. I was the woman stating that although I respect Jessica’s right to make decisions for herself and her family, I don’t feel she (or anyone) can speak on behalf of all SAHMs. Every parent has to find what works best for them and their family. In the process, we all need to respect each other’s choices. Parenting is hard enough without having total strangers criticize our choices.
How I would have loved me some Dr. Phil that very day. I too have lived on both sides of the grass is always greener cliche and it is most definitely a personal choice. If we continue to ask our kids how we’re doing, than yes, we do have the power to be happy and make our kids happy.
My son thanked me three time for building a fort with him, and for sharing popcorn and a home movie. Three times he turned to me with complete appreciation. I wonder, if I had made myself completely accessible 24/7 would he have felt the same way? I think not.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. That you shouldn’t be 100% available so that your kids will be grateful when you play with them?
I wonder, if staying home is so important, why more people aren’t willing to go to a system that guarantees that. Sweden & Norway, one parent can be home for 1 year at 80% salary; you can even split that so if dad wants to take 4 months and mom 8 months, sure.
The reality is the U.S. doesn’t feel it is that important.
I think “people” are willing, but corporations aren’t. The U.S. has unfortunately allowed corporate greed to pull a lot of the strings of our daily lives, starting with the types of legislation that get introduced and passed in our Congress. Corp’s don’t want to pay for “no work.” They want to squeeze out a maximum of productivity for a minimum of investment from real workers (CEO’s are excepted, naturally). I think that’s the main reason why the U.S. system hasn’t caught up to the rest of the more civilized family leave systems of other countries.
Do you really think it is fair to stay at home moms to have their representive be a judgemental person who comes across as a nut. I am a stay at home mom of three girls 17,15 and 11 and I can assure you that women does not represent me. As far as childen whose mothers work being more successful in school I can assure you that is not true in all cases my two older daughters are in the top 2% of their class. My middle is ranked 2 in a class of 400. My children also have a strong faith and attend mass every week without any fighs. I have instilled in my children that being nice is the most important thing they can do in school. My children have been bullied often in school because they are not cool and I taught them that it is better to be bullied the to be a bully. I have to tell you that most of the bullies in their schools are children of working moms.
@georgianna:
I get that not everyone agrees with Jessica and she certainly has strong opinions, but I wouldn’t call her a nut. That said, I think you are making some unfair assumptions too.
I was bullied in school. I wrote about my horrible experience here. Almost all of those awful bullies had stay at home parents.
We have chosen not to raise our children in any religion and think that they are better off for it. I would expect and encourage them to fight it if anyone tried to drag them to mass.
Different people have different values. If you are religious, that is fine with me. But people who do not have “strong faith” can be exceptionally compassionate, caring and ethical human beings that are driven by their own compass rather than a list of religious edicts.
Okay, for one, I usually steer clear of tv discussions of any topics, because they are meant mostly to sensationalize not to inform, invoke change or even give real helpful advice. For another, there is much discussion and debate on that which triggers insecurities in us. That’s where all these conflicts come from. The insecurity that someone else has it all right and we are doing it all wrong. In fact, the MORE insecure one is, the MORE defensive one becomes protecting one’s position.
I have done both, worked out of the home with two children, then stayed at home. I just recently reprinted my “story” about why here: Female Attrition in the STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics) field.
It’s not the fact that I care what others think about me being a WOHM or a SAHM. It’s about me being an educated woman in an tough field walking away temporarily but wanting back in because it’s what I LOVE to do. I’m suffering because I know EXACTLY what I gave up.
The thing that makes me most upset is not whether or not I should have quit my job (I know why I did and am grateful to do so), but it is the fact that now that my children are getting older, it will be tough getting job re-training so that I can re-enter the laboratory. That’s the thing that really pisses me off. I have 12 years of experience, I was excellent at what I did, I feel confident I get back up to speed when I do, my husband is willing to shift his schedule around so one of us could drop off the kids before school and the other could pick us up after school – but I need someone willing to take a chance on me. It literally scares the pants off me thinking I’m never going to get back in, after all I did to get where I was.
After 5 years of being at home, teaching them about nature and science, nurturing a love of reading in them, advocating for my selectively mute daughter, it’s nerve-wracking to think that I won’t be able to get back on the on-ramp to a science career again. Is the door of opportunity closed? Who knows. At this point, I’m willing to wash glassware, just to be back in a lab again.
As usual, thanks for the lively discussion.
Peace
Casey
Who is teaching your children values? You or the daycare or school? The answer is probably wherever they spend the most time at. What is your value? What is important to instill in your children? Are you instilling it or is someone else? Are you satisfied with the character traits you see in your children? Little people become big people one day. Are they going to grow up having your values or someone else values? This is our future America.
I don’t think it is the employers responsibility to support what is a personal choice. Since we have birth control, adoption and abortions, no one needs to have children. I chose not to have children and I see how employers bend over backwards to accommodate parents. On the other hand my personal choices and those of people like me are not being accommodated. I want to take a year off to do charity work in Africa, but where is my paid leave and guaranteed job when I get back. I have seen women have numerous children each with a year mat leave, they get to leave work whenever they want for a child’s play or sickness while the rest of us pick up the slack.
Also to the Stay-At-Home moms. My mother always told to me to never date a guy who was raised by a stay-at-home mother and boy was she right about that. They tend to have more sexist views towards women. I also feel bad for daughters raised by stay at home mothers – they tend to be less ambitious and feel less capable then boys. Children raised by stay-at-home moms have a sense of entitlement and lack of worldliness that we are all subjected to when they leave the nest. Women are more than just a set of udders and a uterus we have brains and we can really make the world a better place if more of us are in positions of power.
Wait: You have just detailed the ways that you believe stay-at-home shape the outcomes of their children’s lives and personalities, and then imply that motherhood is not a “position of power”? I sense some irony here.
There are some, in fact, who might argue that the domestic position of power is the most influential in a society. Think about how American life changed throughout the 20th century; nearly all of that change can be traced directly back to the shift in women’s rights of self-determination. And if the last 12 months have shown us anything sociologically, it is that being employed confers neither security nor power on anyone, male or female, parent or not.
Andi, I see the irony; however, regardless of the mothering technique employed by the stay at home parent the situation and family dynamic that is created by stay-at-home mothers causes a gender imbalance due to our capitalist society that associates money and working with power. Therefore, if the man is working he is in a position of power and the mom is relegated to a subordinate role. This is societal because we have adopted the capitalist economic system where power, success and in turn respect are directed at those that make money. So my point is that the father by being the breadwinner is in an elevated position in the household. Right or wrong nurturing is not respected like hard work in our society and it never will be as long as we are capitalist, the golden rule. It is not until a power balance is achieved in the basic economic unit, the family, that it will be achieved in society. How can a women be respected when her children see her serve a man and ask for an allowance instead of two people working as a team and equally contributing to chores, money, and parenting? The economic crises has raised some economic questions and it will be interesting to see if we adopt a more socialist system.
Look at how much our society elevates hard work and contributing to society. The “American Dream” is all about reaching your potential. Being a hard worker and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is noble and something to be admired. This is why working mothers get more respect from society and their children. This is why their children are better to deal with in the real world as adults than stay at home children. Stay-at-home moms must realize this at some level and this is why they tend to get upset and bent out of shape by working mothers.
Also how are we to have women senators, presidents, ceos, directors if mothers stayed at home? I respect a women’s right to self-determination but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with their choice.
I was going to explain to you all the ways that I run our household finances and whatnot.
But my husband told me if I did, he’d cut off my allowance.
If you’ll excuse me I’ve got finish this chai latte before I go to yoga. Have fun at work.
Your point is well-taken; however, I don’t accept the assumption that equality must come in the form of women meeting the capitalist/”male” standard. We’re seeing signs that domestic duties are receiving more respect in our society, in that more men are opting to stay home, and more women are earning higher pay at their jobs. Many couples do see the balance of home and work as “two people working as a team,” insofar as it is no longer assumed that the women must, by default, take the domestic role or sacrifice her career aspirations. And men who don’t participate actively in child-rearing are scorned by society that now expects fathers to tote the babies and change the diapers. The shift is in progress; it will be interesting to see how far it progresses and what the outcomes are for all of us.
And what about the harsh economic times we are currently in? Do you really think that a job confers a sense of power in a time when absolutely no job is safe? The idea of power in employment is an illusion, except in that having money gives a person more choices of things to do, places to live, etc. Jobs comes, jobs go, and many men literally hate working and would love the freedom to stay home and “beg” money from their working wives. I don’t think our society’s views of employment are quite as simplistic as the “American Dream,” particularly not nowadays. Working means having food and paying bills–that is not power; that is survival. It is the need for the nurturance of the home and family (for parents as well as children) that does not change, even when economic tides do. Does it require a mother (or father) to stay at home in order to create that nurturance? No. But we should not scorn those who would see their role as the nexus of stability in the home as more important (or more personally fulfilling) than making policy or planning budgets. To compare the stay-at-home mother of today, who is most likely a highly independent individual in her own right, to the dependent mothers of the 1950′s and 60′s, is inaccurate. This is a new generation of SAHM’s and I daresay their daughters will grow up without the societal bridling that the older mother grew up knowing.
Caroline,
First off, my husband was raised by a stay at home mother. He did not expect me to stay at home with my children when I got pregnant with my firstborn. In fact, he ended up being a stay at home dad when he was laid off from his job and couldn’t find work for 12 months. I supported our family while he did the dishes, took care of my infant and did the clothes.
When he went back to work, we had an egalitarian family – almost equal earning power and equal housekeeping duties. We were a team. We still are, even though I decided our family was more fractured by my 11 hour a day absence (8 hour work day, 1.5 hour commute each way) than was worth it, so I quit when my second born was 9 months old. I still contribute to the family, because of some wise investments and because we bought a modest home we could afford if we only had one primary income.
I once swore off having a family. Hell, I swore off marriage, so sure I was going to have a string of affairs. But God, what I would have missed had I did that. And I no longer have to wonder who will take care of me when I’m sick and dying and if my husband is gone. My daughters will.
I had a friend/co-worker who died early, of breast cancer, when she was 51. She had no children either. She was estranged from her mother, had no siblings, and long divorced from her husband (who divorced her after she got her Ph.D.) Who handled her end of life affairs? My other friend and co-worker. She signed off on her DNS, she had power of attorney. She helped select a funeral casket.
Who’s going to be there for your end of life needs?
Sure, no one NEEDS to have children…unless we don’t want our species to die out. Then SOMEONE needs to have children. And I for one, thoroughly enjoy sex, hate condoms, don’t want to risk blood clots and cancers from hormone pregnancy preventers, and even the IUD doesn’t prevent pregnancies, but it is an ABORTIFACIENT. It aborts the fertilized egg.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/CCLIUD.TXT
So, yeah, unless you want to get yourself sterilized (which would throw you into premature menopause), your birth control options are not really risk free.
And non-pregnant women CAN get time off from work to pursue other things. But usually they are sabbaticals given to tenured professors. Or family leave to care for a ailing parent (which is why it’s called the FAMILY medical leave act).
When you get time off to pursue charity work, you can bet that even though you don’t have a job when you come back, you can put all that experience on your resume…and someone will be impressed. I highly doubt anyone is going to be impressed with my 5 years at home, even though I was a special needs advocate and I researched everything I could about selective mutism, and I set up a peer-to-peer support system through my blog for other parents of selective mutism. I won’t get recognition because I was an advocate for my own daughter and can’t use that as “credible” volunteer work.
As for the comment, “Women are more than just a set of udders and a uterus we have brains and we can really make the world a better places if more of us are in positions of power”. Whew, that smacks heavily of that misguided, saccharine sweet, naivete that only comes from really uninformed, immature women.
Stay at home mothers have INCREDIBLE amounts of power and influence. We make the world a better place ONE CHILD AT A TIME, by having children feel secure and confident in their abilities to make their own choices.
Do what you want, but don’t feel sorry for anyone. We all are capable of making appropriate decisions for our family. Your views aren’t going to change my convictions that I made the right choice to stay at home, and if I decide to re-enter the workforce, to make that choice too.
Pardon the typos, I was typing too fast.
I’m sorry, but the IUD is not an abortifactant.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2623730
@Caroline:
On your first point, I am a big believer in choice. I am also a big believer in giving back to the world. I think raising the next generation is a choice that gives back to the world. I also think that taking a year off to do charity work in Africa is a choice that gives back to the world. I think employers should support BOTH of those choices.
On your second point: [sarcasm] You make a good argument. Damn. I guess that means that my son will be a sissy and my daughter will be an nut cracking bitch, since they are both being raised by a stay at home dad. [/sarcasm] That stay at home dad, by the way, was raised by a stay at home mom. I am a successful, work out of home, entrepreneur and I was also raised by a stay-at-home mom. Guess we just both got REALLY lucky. [sarcasm] I guess we should all put our kids in day care from Day 1 and ship them off to boarding school starting in kindergarten to be 100% sure that we don’t have any negative influence on them. [/sarcasm]
Caroline, As a feminist AND a SAHM I take exception to the notion that I am raising my male children to be sexist. There are many who reject society’s capitalist economic system in favor of personal values or practical household economics (e.g., why should I do paid work for “the man” only in turn to hand over my paycheck for someone else to raise my young children?). Every mother is a working mother, regardless if she is getting paid for it. Additionally, who says all who chose to stay at home with their children are condemned to a life of eternal servitude? Prior to going into politics, Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, was a SAHM. I would argue that her domestic experience informs her current role in politics. We don’t have to agree with each other’s choices, be it having children, staying home, going back to work, or choosing to be child-free, but we can choose to withhold judgement.
i believe two things: 1. we all have choices 2. be careful where you point that finger.
i’m not judging any mom for her choice to work or stay home with her kids. as far as i’m concerned, anyone who’s home raising their child/children all day doesn’t need a desk & a stapler to prove that what they’re doing is full time work.
however– there are opportunities for families to get creative and the dialogue needs to start going well beyond “mom stays home” or “mom climbs corporate ladder” “period, the end.” we’re no longer defined by roles that took root in 1950s or 1980s. it’s 2010. we have new choices, new opportunities, (relatively) new technology that enable us as families to look at our situation & figure out what works best for our home.
i share this not because i think i’ve cornered the market on creative parenting by any means, but because it’s possible for parents to raise their children successfully, together, in ways that sometimes break the molds. i own my own business that takes very good care of my family. i built it so it would work with me working virtually. i manage my team, have client conference calls, get work done…at home. it allows me the flexibility to support my family financially and be there for my son throughout the day. moms are talented creatures, and just like all the SAHMoms that can take time from their days to blog, twitter, post on this web site, i can feed, bathe, change, play with & read to my son and still find time to get work done throughout my day. maybe i live in that “gray area,” but i have a feeling there are a lot of moms in there with me.
SAHDads
there are times i need a quiet office, to take a meeting off-site, or hop on a conference call that needs my full attention. that’s where my husband comes in. fortunately, my work affords us the opportunity for my husband to be a full time SAHDad. he’s an amazing father. i’m certain he was born to do this. and while i have rough days ‘at work,’ because i’m here i see first hand that my husband’s work deserve a medal. frankly, i’m over dads being left out of the dialogue (whether it’s acknowledging how hard they work so moms can have the option to stay home or realizing that — esp in this economy — many dads are now staying home to help raise their children).
i’m just saying, it’s 2010, let’s not let roles defined by our parents, grandparents and generations before them dictate what our options are. shows like this one, media in general, need to dig a little deeper if they want to truly address the options that are out there for families today. it’s possible to get creative beyond ‘mom does or doesn’t work’, it’s possible for dads to have more engaged, nurturing and hands-on roles in raising their children – including being the stay at home parent- & it’s possible for all of us to raise our children in ways that work for us without judging everyone else for making different choices.
Ph.D in parenting…just curious…does your husband blog his adventures as a SAHD? Would love to add him to my blog. I don’t have many SAHD bloggers on my blogroll but it would be cool to have a few.
@Raising Smart Girls: Sorry – just realized I never replied to this. No – he doesn’t blog. I can’t even convince him to write a guest post on my blog.
Andi, Great response! I completely agree with your points about how husbands and wives view the domestic environment as a team one; however, I worry about children who view the world more simplistically than we do. They see their Dad working and their mom statying at home and because of societal influences they see Dad as the top of the hierarchy. But I have not doubt that parents go into a traditional model with the best intentions.
Now on to the point “I am not paying someone else to raise my child”. This is something you hear a lot. I am a firm believer that it takes a village to raise a child not just two (or one parent) and that children benefit and are more well adjusted when they have the influence of many adults. Children should be free to think for themselves and develop their own ideas and views on the world not just be carbon copies of their parents. How self-important are you to mold little mini versions of yourself? These children, who get so much attention from just their parents, develop a scewed self esteem and find it harder to relate to adults outside the famiy unit. We all have to deal with your “special” children when they become adults and trust me it is not a picnic working with these entitled, self-important individuals who lack key social skills.
Lastly, I did not want to get into a big discussion about my decision to not have children but since it was brought up. I live a very fufilled life and your implication that just because someone does not have or want children means they must suffer problems with their other relationships is presumptive. I have a very close family, I work at a job that makes a difference in the world, I vounteer, donate money to worthy causes, I have a partner that is the love of my life and many close friends. I am not worried about the end of my life especialy because I have strong fufilling relationships. I have seen too many children abuse, disregard, resent and mistreat their older parents. Children are no garantee for happy twighlight years. Just like I can’t understand what it is like to raise children you can’t understand what it is like to chose to live without them and I couldn’t be more happy. Also the IVF thing doesn’t bother me because abortion doesn’t bother me.
You are right I have judged stay-at-home moms. I have read some points here that make me question some of my views which has been enlightening; however, I still believe that they are setting the women’s movement back. You have also judged me for not wanting children so we all have our prejudices and biases. Also the trends towards sexist sons and less ambituous daughters are trends noticed for many instances (empirically supported) everyone can name an exception, like a smoker that lived to 100 but that does not discount the many smokers who died earlier of lung and cariovascular diseases.
People will always have children society will go on, even though the world would be better off with less children in it. Western children are bad for the environment due to their consumerism, intense lifestyles. Also I do not believe in pass the buck living. The old “I am having children and making the world a better place”, what about you? How are your children making the world a better place? What are you doing besides raising more spoiled western children with an over inflated view of themselves? What if your children don’t make the world a better place?
Anyways I just wanted to inject other views that I thought were missing in this blog and I have really been enjoying your comments. I love spirited debate especially about women’s issues with other women because it is only with a lively exchange ideas do we either strengthen our own or open our minds to other possibilities. I look forward to your responses. Thank you!
Why are you making the assumption that our children are spoiled simply because they have a parent raising them?
What spoils them is material items bestowed upon them, not parental love, time and attention. Toys, video games, iPods, cell phones with texting capabilities.
And it’s not “just” Western parts of the world that suffer from this materialism. Singapore, with their 2 child limit, is one of the MOST money conscious, status conscious, materialistic city you will find.
It takes a village to raise a child. Bullcrap. Who says so? I see the village around me – completely self-absorbed, disconnected, shallow people who do not know how to relate to others on deeply intimate levels and have tolerance and acceptance for differences.
I am not making the assumptions that you will end up like my friend. I’m just telling you what happened to her, and even before that happened, I didn’t want it to happen to me. And you are right, their are children that mistreat their parents.
But my children won’t. I’ve studied human development as a personal research project to find out what the best outcomes are for raising resilient, thoughtful, respectful children are. Because I have a child with a diagnosed severe social anxiety issue that caused her to shut down in social setting like school, what good would throwing her in with the lions do – ie force her beyond her capabilities. She was developing asynchronously – her cognitive development was light years ahead of her emotional development. So I should push my child beyond her abilities so that she might “integrate” among people like you better? PUUUUHHHHHLLLLLEAAAASSSE. No thank you.
Caroline. My children are not “special” in the sneering way you suggest. My children are gifted children. They have a former molecular genetics scientist for a mother and a mechanical engineer for a father. I can assure you they WILL go on to do something great for the world.
As for me, I “gave back” to the world already. My first job I was in food microbiology. I tested food products that companies produced to make sure they didn’t have bacterial contamination so that people like yourself won’t get food poisoning. My second job was in forensic DNA analysis. I spent five years analyzing evidence from sexual assault cases and homicides and I put some very bad men in jail. Some of my victims were young girls – there was one that was gang raped by 4 men, and another that was burned alongside her mother. I couldn’t save those victims, but I could help prevent further atrocities like that from happening again. My third job was in medical genetics. I supervised a laboratory that diagnosed rare diseases and gave answers to families struggling with some serious health problems and for families who can not figure out why their sons keep dying within the first weeks of life.
I think this “gives back” to the world quite adequately, don’t you think?
So you are telling me, that I have to be currently working to be an example to my daughters? Bullcrap. I think my TELLING them my stories of what I did will be enough.
I don’t give a monkey’s butt what THE TRENDS say, my children are outliers, just like my husband and I are. My daughter’s WILL go on to beat THE TRENDS because they are not a common statistic, and they have an extraordinary mother who is deeply compassionate and humanistic and will always have the “greater good” in mind as I raise them.
So, yeah…go ahead and continue to be prophetic if you want, but you are dead wrong on this one sister.
“These children, who get so much attention from just their parents, develop a scewed [sic] self esteem and find it harder to relate to adults outside the family unit. We all have to deal with your “special” children when they become adults and trust me it is not a picnic working with these entitled, self-important individuals who lack key social skills.”
This is completely IGNORANT. Just completely.
My kids relate to adults outside the family unit. They have school teachers, and church leaders, and aunts and uncles and grandparents.
Do you think we stick them in a flippin’ closet?????
Caroline – it’s IUD, not IVF – IUD = intrauterine device. IVF = in vitro fertilzation.
I just want to comment that what’s missing in your points is coherent logic.
Okay rant over. I feel sorry that certain members of society are grossly misinformed and immensely close-minded.
I just wanted to say I wrote a post about empirical research-based evidence for attachment theory and NOT putting children into day-care arrangements and referenced links to find more information on peer-reviewed research articles on attachment disorders and anxiety disorders.
here it is:
I mean here:
http://raisingsmartgirls.wordpress.com/2010/01/10/research-on-attachment-theory-and-anxiety-disorders/
I live in Singapore. Singapore does not presently have a 2-child limit. And I hope you are not suggesting that Singapore children are a prime example of children who are spoilt.
Let’s not make sweeping statements.
Pinkie:
Who or what are you replying to? I don’t understand your comment at all in the context of this post or discussion.
She is replying to Comment #67
I am not suggesting they are a prime example of children who are spoiled, but I have a friend who lives there who has witnessed the same kind of materialism as in western states,. I would not have made that statement had I not been told that by someone who didn’t live there. Perhaps HE was mistaken though. I suppose, like anything else, it’s a matter of perspective and what one sees in the neighborhood they live in.
I mean western countries. Everyone likes to say the United States is materialistic, but we are NOT the only ones in the world to be this way.
And not everyone in the United States is materialistic, either. Some of us do not subscribe to the buy more mentality.
raising smart girls: that is a much more reasonable stance, which I can agree with.
I totally agree with what Liz Fenton on this one.
Why is it such a debate?! It’s like everything with raising children-it’s up to each individual family, no one elses buisness! If you wAnt to home school, bottle feed, work full time, get a nanny, get a manny get a new career…do it! Do what makes you all hsppy, do what works!
I worked full time as a professional nanny (have two nursery nursing diplomas and a degree-not like other so called nannies but they’d another very long debate) and I lobed my job caring for other peoples children.
The stick the poor mums would get for working full time from other mums was awful!
They would say to me-oh those kids I bet thru think you’re their mum, how ridiculous! Of course they didn’t! Thru thought I was their friend who came to play everyday while mummy and daddy went to work to earn pennies for holidays and clothes and tonpsy bills!
After my ramble I just want to say, I’m now a stay at home full time mum to my 8 month old and have another on the way. I stay at home because my career is looking after Children and I feel I’m the best in my field at doing this, so want the best for my children. However, if my career was something else, I would go back to work.
It’s all about choice like I’ve already said.
Live and let live!
Here is the thing that kills me so much in these arguments: people are always all, “why can’t you work from home more?” or talking about workplace flexibility and it is largely ignored that *so many freaking jobs* simply don’t offer this! It is like the blame (again) is being placed on the mother (again) for not making the “right” choice (again) about how to balance her home/work life, when in reality we simply DO NOT HAVE the choice-making ability.
I have been mostly a SAHM for 8 years. It was by choice, but not in the sense that we were privileged because my husband could support us. It was more that we had 3 children in the space of 2 years and there was absolutely nothing I could do that would pay me above what I would be paying out in childcare. And this has been the sad truth for all these years. I know you said it in your post, but affordable, accessible childcare needs to be addressed (here in the US) as well.
I love the Motherhood Manifesto – I bought a copy through MomsRising.org. Until I read it, I thought that I was mostly alone in my situation; I know that I wasn’t on the “suburban” track of having four kids and driving a minivan, so I felt like my impostor-middle-class life was just me flying under the radar. Most women I know are either working because they can’t afford to stay home or are at home because they want and can afford to. But this book helped me see that it’s a larger problem, ingrained into our societal framework, and that there’s so much to be done to see things change.
Thanks for your post!
I am a working mother and what I take offense to comments made by SAHM’s who feel they work harder than I do. I will not judge decisions made because the choices each person makes is right for their family personally. However, what irks me is being told my 45 hours a week I put in at a stressful job and then the duties I have as a mother and homeowner after work is easier. Plain and simple, I don’t care what your argument is, it’s not.
Also, the notion that if your husband can support you, you should be at home. I would rather split the work load with my husband so we can both have a relationship with our son. Those that imply your children are being raised by someone else, does that mean your husband doesn’t have hand in molding your child’s personality because he is at work? Personally, I think the key is choosing a daycare that holds the same values as you do as parents. In fact, daycare has been great for him socially and intellectually.
I agree 100% Brittany.
I have two sons, ages 5 and 8, and work full time as a Senior Engineer at a major company. I have structured my hours so that I work 4 long days, all Fridays off, and am home before school gets out during the school year. This means that I get up before 4am M-Th, and my husband takes the kids to daycare/school around 7:30. I am home by 3:30. I am running non-stop from 3:30am until usually after 11pm making sure that all of the house stuff gets done, and that the boys can do all the activites they wish to join. We have dinner as a family 6-7 days a week, and tons of quality time in the hours after school and before bed. Plus, I have every Friday at home.
I don’t see why women get so offended when I say they should be the ones to stay home during the early years of a child’s life. In my opinion, mothers are more significant than fathers are in their child’s life. While the father is typically, “the head of the house” the mother is normally there to comfort the child. The bond between a mother and her child is like no other thing in this world. If you look at most animals such as wolves or bears, normally, and I say NORMALLY the mother is the one to take care of the child. Mothers are the center of the child’s life. When I was growing up, my mother was always working, as was my father. It always seemed as if she were trying to push me away when she left me at the babysitter’s. By the time she came home she was “too tired” to do anything. My father came home later, but when he came home, he would wake my sister and I up just to see us. We would talk for a half an hour or so while eating McDonald’s. My mother and I are still not close at all and I strongly feel her working during my childhood played a huge role in it. I’m not against women working, I’m against women working during the child’s early life.
Throwing my hat again into the ring.
I can see your points Andre. There is nothing quite as good as mom, even though some people would have us believe otherwise. Mothers are more biologically invested in children – an infant is a “we” before an “I” and that ONLY happens with mom, because the infant came from mom and of all the hormones involved in pregnancy and in breastfeeding (if that is being done). Mothers ARE the extension of the child, until the child develops a strong sense of self…that can ONLY happen from good mirroring from the primary caregivers.
At least the first three years are critical, but even up to the first 7 years which have some of the most important impacts, because many of the predominant beliefs of the security of the world get laid down in these years of childhood. The child mind is the one to organize all the incoming input. This best happens with someone heavily invested in their welfare – a parent, ideally a mother, or even a nurturing grandmother. My mother-in-law was a wonderful mother substitute and loved my daughters almost as much as I did. This is not to knock fathers at all. Thing about fathers, caring and nurturing that they might be, is that they are missing the natural biochemical symbiotic relationship of carrying a child and nursing it.
The vast problem I see is that this relationship and motherhood in general is so undervalued. Mothers have one of the most important roles in the world, and pretty much the least respect for it. It’s no wonder that we find it difficult to be ‘just’ a mom.
Looking back, sometimes I wish I stayed home from childbirth on, but my husband was laid off and I had kept my laboratory job to keep us afloat.
But I’m still pleased with being home now, now that I have been home for 7.5 years. My oldest (now 9) and my middle daughter (now
had me for 7.5 years, and my youngest (6) had had me her entire life. It’s been a grand adventure. We’ve been to so many places together – from historical re-enactments (civil war, living historical farms, wild west towns) to museums – and have traveled a bit too to different places by car and had the time to travel by train to go see my dad in Colorado – someone I hadn’t seen in 29 years. I’ve had energy in the afternoons/evenings to take my daughters out individually for “Mommy and me” dates, and spent time doing science projects and now getting into a lot of art projects as a way to have fun together. I will get an opportunity to give my daughter’s class a lecture on Forensic DNA analysis (one of the jobs I had before I had kids). What’s more, I’ve had a lot of energy to pursue my own intellectual interests (not those an employer asks of me).
I grew up with an emotionally absent and verbally (and sometimes physically) abusive mother. I grew up with an alcoholic father and alcoholic step-father. Family life really just sucked. I learned a LOT in the past year (since I posted last) about how to deal with my childhood wounds. I would never have time for that if I had to work on top of be a mother. I realize a lot of people didn’t have the upbringing I did and didn’t have some really messed up abuse to contend with. But, since I didn’t have to work, I had the time to do a LOT of investigation into the origins of some of my own issues I brought with me from childhood. I am now quite knowledgeable human psychology which helps me in all my relationships.
My daughter had selective mutism. Staying at home gave me a chance to be a full time advocate for her, and I have quite a following on my blog of other parents of selectively mute children who look for resources and support.
I may not have a paid job, but I certainly have a very meaningful vocation. And I think of all the things I would not have been able to do had I been working all this time.
That being said, my husband’s been laid off for a year and this is the second time he’s had a direct hand at influencing my daughters lives. But, he also gets more frustrated at I am at their normal but sometimes frustrating developmental behavior.
It’s a race to see which one of us can get back to work first. The thing that irritates me the most is NOT the fact that I took the time off at all, but that I am challenged with finding an on-ramp back into the STEM field. I’m doing my best to network, but companies aren’t so keen on the 7.5 year gap in my work history.
Still, despite the career setback, I would NOT have changed it for the world. At all.
For those mothers who work and still find time to be with their children, I’m glad it works for you. I personally hated it. I resented having NO time for me because I was gone 11 hours a day, to come home to take care of kids, and then fall into bed and wake up a zombie the next morning. It didn’t matter that my husband shouldered as much as he could when he was home (he had an odd rotating shift work pattern). It was brutal.
I have grown more as an individual AND as an intellectual when I didn’t have to spend time at/on the way to work. I hear a LOT of bitching going on from my working mother friends. Too bad, I think, for them, they are all on the verge of collapse, divorce, and are otherwise miserable, stretched so thin they can barely stand up. I look in some of their eyes and see the pain and the sadness and the loneliness of too many demands. Most of the husbands help. It’s just not enough.
Busy, busy, busy, only time for work, housework and childcare. Some are accustomed to their frenetic pace, but I look at them and I see the pressure they are under. I hear the bitterness creep in from time to time. Then they crack jokes about it in order to keep from buckling under the pressure they are under.
Sad, so sad. But that’s what the world is coming to. The push to do more, have more, be more…
Yeah, you’re right. Daycare babies will be just fine….because they will have been indoctrinated to regulation and routine from a very early age to hold in emotions, to obey rules, to eat and poop on command.
Conform, conform, that is the norm.
Ah, who cares. Not I.
I’m glad you all feel confident in your choices. That’s the only thing that matters. If anyone feels offended, it may be because you are worried that there might be some truth to their concerns. That’s MY guess.
Personally, I believe that fact that the mother/infant are connected by default is, if anything, an argument for purposely seeking out a strong bond between the other parent (father, non-biological mother) and the baby. It was incredibly important for us that we both have a strong bond with our babies.
Oh, for sure.
My husband still finds it difficult to bond with his girls. He, an engineer, quiet by nature, nurturing by his mother but extremely neglected and criticized by his father finds it really difficult even though he has made a bigger effort than I had ever anticipated.
Our daughters are anything but normal though. High sensitivities coupled with high intellect and at least one of them with ADHD like qualities makes it a challenge for him to bond.
He does so much for them (like has taken over making lunches for them) and with them (playing ball with my oldest, playing games with all of them).
It’s been great, though not without challenges simply because our strong female emotions and personalities tend to overwhelm him sometimes. I sometimes wonder how it would have been if he had at least one boy to relate to…though our oldest daughter is tomboyish.
Life sure has been very low-stress around our house though. Being unemployed frees up a lot of mental and physical energy. Wish we didn’t have that pesky little thing like bills and insurance to pay for.
One other thing I am dying to know…of those women who are working mothers…how is your sex life? Are you having regular, fulfilling sexual relations with your partners long after the children come into the picture?
I know of about 6 couples with children whose wives work who has NO energy left over for sex. After 5-10 years, even though the mothers might be taking care of the children quite well, and working quite well, they are neglecting their sexuality and their husbands in order to do so. I talk to my therapist about this phenomenon. She tells me, that by the time women are MY age (41) many of them have turned off their sexuality because they have too much resentments built up trying to do it all. Whereas I enjoy quite an active and varied sex life because I have the energy and desire to keep that very important part of my life alive.
Just curious. I would love to know how that is working out for the working moms who’ve commented here.
Anyone willing to educate me on the matter?
If the mother is too tired, but the father isn’t, then perhaps she is taking on too much and he is taking on too little. Far too often, the husband goes to work and maybe does a few “manly chores”, but the mother ends up working, doing the bulk of the household chores, and the bulk of the child rearing. No wonder the mom is too tired.
You know, I have never met any man that was too tired for sex who actually did work (manly or chores) around the house. I suppose it’s possible. But I don’t know.
My husband and I went to work and we shared duties of cooking, washing dishes, and laundry. He wasn’t fond of washing floors, toilets, or dusting. But he COULD do them if need be. But he mowed the grass, did the car maintenance and fixed the toilet when it broke, etc.
I know of a LOT of women who make their men do a lot more than a “few” ‘manly’ chores. I live in a working class neighborhood. The husbands aren’t computer literate, but they sure know how to do the manly chores. They have a honey-do list a mile long because most of them can’t afford to contract it out and since they don’t have brand new houses, they have legitimate house repairs or renovations that need doing. Some of them have some fantastic landscaping.
Of course, the manly chores mean nothing to the city dweller who lives in an apartment or condo. So yeah, those men could be pulling their weight with childcare and housework.
The thing is…I think it’s a shame that MY man wasn’t taught how to make major repairs around the house (cause his father didn’t know how). He tries, God love him, he does. But projects don’t turn out well for him (yeah, even though he could DESIGN it just fine, building his creations always goes a little wonky). But he does his own brake pad changes and other intensive car stuff.
I’d gladly take back housecleaning if he could replace the broken doors, cabinets, redo all the trimwork (our house if 40 years old). Course these things require MONEY…which we don’t have a lot of.
Yet, I still see women whose husbands do a lot of manly work complaining about their husbands because they aren’t helping out as much with the kids. Um…well, wait a minute. How many of the women are taking on manly chores to help the husbands so they have more time for the kids? I’d like to know. Why wouldn’t the argument go BOTH ways?
So yeah, I don’t know. I don’t care what task needs doing, whoever has the expertise and the energy and the time, ought to pitch in and do it. Teamwork…it’s require in the workforce these days, why not the home front?
Okay. I’m not sure I actually replied well here. A lot of things figure into this.
Bottom line, there are no clear-cut solutions to some of our most frustrating problems to creating a truly egalitarian home arrangement. Lots of variables to think about.
I think I sort of threw things off track by saying ‘manly’ chores. That isn’t the main issue.
What I mean is that in a lot of families where both parents work, the mom ends up “working” (job, childcare, household chores) for several hours more per day than the dad does. I don’t have exact stats right now, but I know that they exist and I know that women still do shoulder the bulk of household chores, even when both partners work. No wonder they are tired.
In our house, my partner is more likely to fall asleep while bringing the kids to bed than I am. But each person and each family is different.
I don’t think women trained their men right from the get-go. I was pretty adamant about my husband knowing how to do some things around the house, by not automatically do his laundry, wash dishes, etc. I had expectations that he would learn to do these things and I would NOT automatically do them just because I am the girl.
Actually, I think that before a couple marries, they ought to come up with a business plan. In writing. Who is responsible for what duties, with built-in periodic review dates to change the contract if things aren’t working.
I actually think, in some ways, women VOLUNTARILY take on the traditional care-taking/house-care duties from day one, as a way of showing love their men (at least during the early years of marriage, before kids). As in saying “see how much I love you, I’ll do your laundry for you/cook great meals for you/I’ll take care of your domestic needs” and other duties (in other words, be their MOTHER). And so the tacit agreement is made that the woman will continue to take care of her husband as if he were a child when kids come along. And come to think of this, this is preached in many Christian churches. For a woman to show her love to her husband and adherence to God’s laws, she’ll be the Proverbs 31 woman. Even if over time, she is shredded into a million pieces trying to do it all.
This expectation (either mandated by social/religious customs or by her own way of care-taking) creates a psychological bind that women can’t easily change.
I say, it’s time for a revolution. Who SAYS it’s the woman’s job to HAVE to take care of the housework after work? The women do do it, yes, that’s true. But who’s holding the gun to their head? I mean really? If they don’t want to do the chores, don’t do it. Eventually, the kids will be old enough to pitch in and it could be a FAMILY endeavor. Make a game of it, even. But I don’t see that happening in many households either. The mother should be teaching ALL the kids (both sexes) to do age appropriate chores. By the time the kids are teenagers, they should be taking over routine household tasks – dusting, laundry, washing bathrooms. Is this happening? No. It’s not. Too many teenagers have too few household responsibilities. Why? Because teamwork wasn’t modeled.
What’s nice in our household is that my daughters see their dad doing laundry, cooking and washing dishes. They will see that it’s not all the woman’s job to do these things. They will most likely look for a mate that will be capable of doing just what their dad was able to do.
But, yeah, this doesn’t happen in most marriages. I get that. Out of my four sisters and I, I think I’m the only one whose husband does housework around the house. I feel only slightly bad for my sisters, but the way I figure it, they bought into the conditioning that household tasks were the sole domain of the woman, thanks to my mother and other social conditioning.
My mother can’t believe sometimes that I leave the house to go out without making sure my husband and kids have a meal on the table. I’m like, “mom, really? He’s not a child, he knows how to cook for himself and the kids and cook quite well. Trust me, he can HANDLE it”.
And he can handle it because I made sure he got a lot of practice!
Ah well… I probably should stop while I’m ahead.
This is an area where I tend to get a little feisty about. Sometimes I am really domestic and traditional, but most times I’m not.
I basically do whatever it is I feel like doing, and I kind of like it that way.
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