This past week, I posted an article on my facebook page about some mothers in the UK that have decided to allow their teenage daughters’ boyfriends sleep over. Is that shocking? I didn’t think so. I found it progressive and refreshing. But not everyone agrees and some find the idea of it irresponsible or morally reprehensible.
I respect the fact that different people have different opinions about sex, ranging from “whoever, whenever, wherever” all the way to “put a ring on her before you sleep with her”. I also respect parents wishing to share their values with their children. However, I don’t think that forbidding something from happening in your home is the best way to ensure that your teen adopts your values. I think a loving, mutually respectful, open and connected relationship is the best way to do that.
Here are a few things that I know about teens and sex, from first or second hand experience:
- Teens who decide that they are ready to have sex are going to have sex, whether you allow it in your home or not (they’ll find somewhere else to do it and that may not be a safe place or with a safe person)
- Teens who are not ready to have sex, will not have sex, just because you allow it in your home
- Teens who give into pressure to have sex when they are not ready are going to do that whether you allow it in your home or not
- If teens of the opposite sex have a sleepover, that doesn’t necessarily mean they are having sex
- If teens of the same sex have a sleepover, that doesn’t necessarily mean they are not having sex
I reject the idea that “teens are going to have sex anyway, so you might as well allow it in your home”, because I don’t think that is entirely true. Some teens do opt not to have sex. That said, I also reject the idea that allowing your teen to have opposite sex sleepovers is encouraging them to enter into sexual relationships before they are ready.
These aren’t just my crazy ideas. In the book Not Under My Roof, Amy Shalet looks at parents, teens and the culture of sex in the United States and the Netherlands.
For American parents, teenage sex is something to be feared and forbidden: most would never consider allowing their children to have sex at home, and sex is a frequent source of family conflict. In the Netherlands, where teenage pregnancies are far less frequent than in the United States, parents aim above all for family cohesiveness, often permitting young couples to sleep together and providing them with contraceptives.
I haven’t read the book yet, but it certainly fits with both my experience and my worldview on parenting and sex.
If you don’t want your children to have sex before they are ready and don’t want them to practice unsafe sex, I think the best way to do that is:
- Instill self-confidence and a sense of self-worth in your children
- Teach them to respect themselves and to respect others (that means teaching them to say ‘no’ when they want to say ‘no’ and teaching them to hear and respect ‘no’)
- Teach them about safe sex and be open to answering their questions
- Share your opinions about sex with them, but be sure to tell them that they are free to form their own opinions and make their own decisions
- Tell them that they can come to you with any questions that they have, but also make sure there are other people they can go to with questions if they are not comfortable talking to you (doctor, older sister/brother, aunt/uncle, school guidance counselor, anonymous teen help phone, etc.)
- Ensure they have an easy way to get condoms and other forms of birth control if they decide that they need it
Then, after you have done that, trust your child. There really isn’t a huge difference between 16 years old and under the shackles of the parental roof versus 18 years old and in a college dorm. If you haven’t given them the skills to make good decisions by the time they are 16, then you probably have bigger things to worry about than just this issue.
I hope that if I teach my kids well, that they will make good decisions. But if they don’t and if one of them does end up with a revolving door of lovers coming in and out of our house, at least I may know about it and have an opportunity to talk to them about it. The parents who make sex sound dirty and forbid sex at home — they may (unknowingly) have the same problem, without the opportunity for dialogue.
Photo credit: michi003 on flickr
{ 107 comments… read them below or add one }
Bravo Annie! Another very well written post! I was a virgin when I got married at 21 years old and I will teach my children the same values. My mom had me as an unwed 20 year old and raised me as a baby on her own. I grew up hearing the stories of how hard it was – she made sure to make me scared of teen pregnancy LOL – and she also taught me to cherish the dream of having sex for the first time as a bride on my wedding night. That is where I am coming from. Those are my values.
That being said, I totally agree with this sentence you wrote: “There really isn’t a huge difference between 16 years old and under the shackles of the parental roof versus 18 years old and in a college dorm. ” It is so true!! As parents we need to make sure we raise our kids with our values and also trust them to make good decisions. It is extremely difficult to find that balance between giving a nearly young adult freedom and protecting them from harm while you still can.
I agree. I view sex as a normal biological activity. Most people have sex for the first time between the onset of puberty and age 20 or so. Denying this reality doesn’t change it. I understand that my daughter will probably have sex for the first time during her teenage years. I would like her to be emotionally and physically ready for it. This means ensuring she has safe people to talk to, access to birth control and contraception (including Plan B and abortion), and safe space to explore her sexuality.
Perhaps I’m more aware because I have a daughter and not a son, but I hate the phrases/words “lose your virginity,” “deflower,” “purity,” etc. All of these tie a woman’s worth up in her lack of sexual activity. Sex is a biological activity (just because there is a psychological component doesn’t change this). A person, especially a woman, is not worth more because she hasn’t had sex or has had few sexual partners. Unfortunately this is a pervasive idea within the US (see controversy over woman volunteering in a school who used to work in porn, victim blaming when women are raped who are sex workers or have many partners, the concern over having “too many” sexual partners).
There are many activities the parents allow their children. All have risks. Singling sex out is absurd, especially since modern reproductive health care and using safe practices makes those risks very small.
I am so grateful by this post, and for your point of view. It’s exactly where I’m at too as a Mama, but couldn’t quite find the right words to express my feelings. My husband and I were “forbidden” to have sex while we were dating, as a matter of fact, we were forbidden to date, having been deemed too young to marry, as a matter of fact. Long story short – we had sex. Forbidding us did nothing except drive a wedge between us and our families, putting us in the position of having to choose between our families and our faith, or each other. We were also given “not under my roof” speeches, and that also had no degree of success either. Teenagers (or young adults) living under the roof of a parents or grandparents who forbid healthy sexual expression are not less likely to have sex – they’re just going to do it elsewhere or on the sly – and neither situation will likely turn out well. I don’t intend to encourage my son to have girls over, or condone sex outside of a committed, healthy and mature relationship, BUT neither will I tell him where he can or cannot be with his partner WHEN HE IS READY, and I fully intend to be open and frank with him about our past and about sex in general. I was raised to be ashamed of sex, of myself and of my body. I will not pass that on to my children if I can help it. Sex, birth, child rearing even, should be celebrated for the beautiful expressions of life that they are – not hidden in a corner of our lives in shame.
All the rest of this aside, I do think there is a big difference in 16 and 18. I say that for several reasons. Some are from personal experience. First, from having raised my own children into their mid to late twenties. There are big differences, not only between 16 and 18, but between 18 and 20, 20 and 22, etc.
Second, I returned to college in my 40s. From that vantage point I was able to observe the difference in my classmates of various ages. The college I attended had a program where students, ranging in age from 16-18, could live on campus and take their last two years of high school simultaneously with their first two years of college.
These students, arguably, are likely to be more mature than the average teenager their age. They have had to meet a stringent criteria to get in and are now living in a dorm setting, rather than at home with their parents.
I took classes with a number of these students, and in my observation, they were, quite obviously, significantly less mature than their older classmates. Using the subject of sex as an example, when an English professor would discuss sexual symbolism in various literature, they tended to giggle uncontrollably. I never saw an older student do that.
Further, there have been scientific studies done in recent years that show just how different the teenage brain physically is from the adult brain. I don’t know specifically, what brain changes are seen in that two year span, but I suspect it would be significant.
I think it depends a lot on the individual. Some people are very mature at 13, others are still giggling about sex at 30.
I am hoping to have a progressive home and raise my daughter to be open and aware, but I do not think I will allow someone elses child into my home to possibly infect or abuse my daughter….He could certainly be a great guy, or he could not be….He could be a bad guy who could change my daughter by hurting her in many different ways…..Sex is sex, but another human being being raised by some one you do not know could potentially be harmful…….Even if I know the other childs mother or father….the other child could be not so good at heart……I will just raise my child to focus on herself and her future and her education and wants, needs, likes, and dislikes before jumping in the bed with some body who could hit her, impregnat her, or give her an STD :S
I think that not knowing how the other child was raised is another reason I’d rather let them sleep over than have my daughter hooking up with them in the back of their car somewhere.
I do agree with your last point re: raising my child to focus on her own needs/future, but don’t think I have to forbid sleepovers in order to achieve that.
That’s why it’s good to be open about it. Of course you wouldn’t let JUST ANYONE in your home to be with your daughter (or son!) and it’s not like you should let your child bring random people in, but if they’ve gotten to know each other and the partner has gotten to know you, then that’s a whole other story. It sounds like you are coming at this from a very negative place. Re STDs, pregnancy, hitting…even if my child was having sex in my home, there would still be the teaching and the expectation that the child would be having SAFE sex. The hitting, in my own home, I don’t even feel the need to address…
While everything you said makes complete sense, I can’t accept the idea that teenagers are ready for relationships at all. I was that age, not all that long ago, and everything is purely hormone based. Kids preparing for college don’t need (or truly understand) the complications of relationships. I do see a huge difference between 16 and 18 and well, it’s difference in me spending 2 years raising a grandchild in my home and my daughter/son raising that child on their own. I’m not willing to be responsible for a teenager’s hormone induced consequence, I walked that road and don’t care to revisit it.
I’m secretly hoping that I’ll be able to keep my kids busy enough with after-school jobs, homework and any extracurricular activities I can find to keep them from having time to date. <– it's a nice dream
If my kids don’t date anyone in high school, I will not be relieved, I will be worried about them being social misfits. I find your attitude incomprehensible.
I didn’t date at all in high school. I really wasn’t ready, and my dating choices were limited. I suppose I was a social misfit, but is that always a horrible thing?
By the way, I’m happily married now.
Glad to hear it!
I think being a high school “misfit” can often mean something positive about a person on an individual level. But I also think it’s unhappy for them. I was a big old nerd until about halfway through my sophomore year when I “blossomed” thanks to a new style and through becoming physically fit, etc. I was a lot happier the rest of the way.
Hi, Alan – nice to run across you again!
As far as the ‘social misfit’ thing goes, I think there are enough potential reasons why someone might not end up dating in high school that I really wouldn’t want to jump to that conclusion. Sure, it might be because they’re a social misfit… or it might be because they just don’t want to get romantically involved at that stage. The problem with assuming that it means they’re a social misfit is that it implies that dating is something you should do as part of the social norm, which isn’t a very healthy message for anyone to pick up.
Hi Dr. Sarah,
What’s unhealthy about that message? It appears there is some unstated premise there that you consider so obvious as to not even warrant mention, yet I sense that it is not one I share.
Huh? Firstly, dating is not something anyone ‘should’ do – it is not an obligation. If people are given the message that it is, then there’s a greater risk that they’ll get involved in unhealthy relationships due to believing that they ought to be dating someone rather than not dating. Secondly, I do not want my children to grow up with the idea that their romantic decisions have to be guided by the social norm, because if they then turn out to be gay, or polyamorous, or happier alone, or in some other way I haven’t thought of outside of what’s socially normal in our culture, they’re going to have a much harder time finding the courage to live their lives in the way that’s right for them.
I think your point about gay relationships would be more valid a couple decades ago. These days, being gay is pretty hip, pretty well accepted among the millennial generation.
As for saying dating is not “an obligation”: well, no. But neither is having friends, having an attractive hairstyle and looking fashionable…etc. Yet those are generally desirable things. Or maybe you disagree? In any event, whether you like it or not, the message that it’s socially expected to date (as well as the things I mentioned) is going to come from one’s peers whether or not it comes from parents. And I’d like my kids, if possible, to be something other than social outcasts in the real world that we actually live in.
Dear god… I can only hope your last sentence was hyperbole, because if things have really reached such a pass in teenage society that a teen would be considered a *social outcast* for *not dating* then I’m going to start worrying now and keep on worrying regardless of what dating decisions my children eventually make. There is no way that that would be a healthy social environment for anyone. Making harmless butdifferent or unusual lifestyle choices, whatever they are, should *never* be enough reason for someone to be a social outcast.
As for the rather less extreme issue of social *expectations* – well, to a certain extent I will expect my children to fit in with social expectations (eat with your mouth closed, thank people for presents, etc.). But that extent should not involve the choices they make about their personal lives and love lives. Those should *not* have to feel guided by social expectations. When it comes to those issues, my role is not going to be to expect my children to fit in with social expectations; it’s going to be to try to give them the strength of will that they’ll need to think about what’s right for their own lives and to go along with that.
And, no, I don’t see ‘looking fashionable’ as being some sort of good that my children should be taught to strive for. I’ll expect them to look clean and neat and not wear anything that would be seen as culturally offensive. That’s it. Should I expect my daughter, once she becomes a teen, to wear high-heeled shoes if they’re still in fashion if she herself prefers comfortable shoes? If the current fashion when my children become teens is for body piercing or tattooing, should I urge them to go along with the crowd regardless of how they themselves feel? What if the fashion is for tight skirts without pockets and my daughter happens to like pockets and freedom of movement?
I think having friends is a rather different example because it’s hard to imagine a circumstance in which someone wouldn’t want friends, whereas I don’t find it too difficult to imagine a circumstance in which a teenager doesn’t want to get involved in dating (maybe at that age my daughter will decide all the boys she knows are silly and immature!)
I agree that being gay is a lot more socially acceptable than it used to be, although I suspect that most gay teenagers are still finding it a lot more difficult than it may look to you from outside that life. However, ‘socially acceptable’ is not the same as ‘social norm’. Being gay is simply never going to be the social norm, because most people are heterosexual. Therefore, I use this as an example of why we should be willing to find lifestyles acceptable even when they are outside the social norm, rather than expecting everyone to conform to the norm.
Ask a teen whether that’s hyperbole. For many (I daresay the majority) of adolescents, obtaining peer group approval is more important than anything else. We can sit here as adults and tut-tut that and talk about how it shouldn’t be that way until we are blue in the face, but you won’t change a thing–you might as well try to empty the ocean with a thimble.
Suicide is one of the leading causes of death among teenagers, and it has only become more common in that age group since I was in high school (when a girl in my school took her own life after being rejected by a boy). And feeling like a “misfit” or “outcast” (even if it seems from our perspective like a minour issue, not worth going to pieces over) is one of the dominant causes of those suicides.
I’m definitely not a fan of high heels by any means, and I would urge my daughter to wear chic alternatives. Nor do I like piercings–not even earrings for girls. But if it came down to it, and it was a binary choice between being sensible and fitting in with her peers (at least among a non-miserable subgroup), I’d support her in doing the annoying and even harmful thing to be fashionable, and hope for some daylight by her college years or mid-twenties.
It just occurred to me that in debating this issue of peer expectations, I’ve sort of implicitly seemed to buy into the premise that a teenager wouldn’t want non-platonic interaction (whether heterosexual or not) just of their own accord, regardless of social norms. I can only truly judge from my own experience, I guess; but I know the hormones that went through me starting around age nine or ten made me *strongly* desire to kiss and touch girls in a way that went far beyond “just friends”.
And I tend to suspect the implication that “girls are different” in that respect is a bit old-fashioned and sexist. My sister and her friends were certainly “boy crazy”, but as I say I can’t really know without being in their bodies whether it was physical lust or just socially conditioned. But logic tells me that it would be unlikely for humans to be the only mammals to go through the physical process of sexual maturity but not have impulses toward mating behaviour.
I think, SlackerInc, that the main point of contention I have with your argument is the assumption that this extreme dependency on peer approval is an inevitable part of being a teenager and can’t be combatted in any way other than fitting in – and more importantly, fitting in with already established social norms. The high rate of teenage suicide has a primary cause of low self esteem, and while peer interactions definitely contribute to that, they aren’t the whole story (obviously).
Teaching kids from a young age that they should find their self worth within themselves does a lot to reduce the impact of rejection as a teenager (although I completely agree it won’t make it go away altogether – over-reaction really is hard wired into the brain at that age). It makes them more resilient. I agree that it’s important to help teenagers find sensible ways to feel like they belong, but it’s a fine line between encouraging them to find like minded people & refraining from giving them only smocks to wear, and implicitly buying into the message that self worth comes from other people’s approval and the brand (and size) of jeans you wear.
I wasn’t “allowed” to date, except people from the church (none of whom I liked) and so instead I snuck out and was with grown men. I would definitely not discourage dating among peers and agree with the PhD post that it is so much smarter and better to have an open relationship with a teen rather than drive them to do things that are much more dangerous.
I agree with your post. Though my daughter is still a toddler–so I haven’t had to face these decisions yet–I hope that I will instill values and self-respect in her throughout her life so that I can trust her to make good decisions as she matures.
Also, I grew up in a home without many boundaries and I had many co-ed sleepovers throughout junior high and high school. Some of these were boys I was dating (but not sleeping with) and some were boys who were strictly friends.
And I know from my own experiences and those of my friends that once we became sexually active, we didn’t need a sleepover to have sex.
This is such a tricky area, and I think it might vary from child to child too – as one of the posts said, children all mature at different ages. I’ve always vowed to have an open home for my children and their friends as I didn’t feel things were that way when I grew up with my parents – no one was allowed to stay over ever, no matter what age or sex they were. I’ve tried to be open and honest about sex and relationships and leave space for my children to make their own decisions about things, while also trying to ensure I teach them to respect themselves and always feel able to say no. When I felt my eldst son was getting to the stage where he was considering having sex, I got him condoms from the family planning clinic and made sure he knew where the clinic was so he could get more in the future. I also told him, if he didn’t feel comfortable getting condoms, then perhaps he should reconsider his decision to have sex
I did respect his privacy though and didn’t insist that he had to talk to me about it. It can be scary watching your “child” take their first steps towards sexual maturity, but also when you see them interacting with another person in such a mature way, it makes you proud 
Agree.
I remember sneaking around when I was a teen. It certainly wasn’t ideal. My parents were adamant that my boyfriend not *set foot* in my bedroom — for any reason, day or night. So we weren’t even allowed to hang out in my room and say, listen to music. Any time my boyfriend was over we only spent time in the common areas of my house. This did not stop me from having sex with him — in the strangest of places, no less, where there was often the chance of us being “caught” by some random stranger.
It’s really hard to say what I’ll do when my kids are having sex (they are 10, 7, 6 and 4) but I really hope that I’m able to have an open, comfortable and trusting relationship with them but I know one thing for sure: I do NOT like the idea of my kids having sex in odd places.
Amanda
I totally could have written this post! My mom and stepdad decided that my boyfriend was not allowed in my room for any reason. Ever. Not to listen to music. Not to pick out a movie. Certainly not to kiss! And you know what? We spent as little time at my house as possible, because I felt like we were under surveillance all of the time. (We were having sex, but most of the time we were at his house, we just sat around and listened to music or watched movies while cuddling). Their attitude didn’t stop us from having sex (in odd places, too), but it did make me really uncomfortable whenever I was at home.
Meanwhile, my sister was having sex with her girlfriend in her room, and they knew nothing about it. I guess it didn’t occur to them. Or they were just worried about pregnancy.
I actually had this conversation over the holidays. I hope my kids and I will have an open relationship when they’re teenagers. I’ll teach them that their bodies are theirs to use as they see fit, but also that sex is genuinely better when you value the person you’re having it with (and vice versa). And there will be a box of condoms in the bathroom that will get refilled without question or judgment. So I don’t think I’ll be creating the kind of environment where my kids run off doing dangerous things.
Having said that, I don’t think partners will be staying over in the teenage years. Relationships, sex aside, can be difficult to navigate and it’s easy to get lost in them. I saw it happen to a lot of my own friends. They were so eager to please their first boyfriend that before they knew it they were in an unhealthy, controlling, even abusive relationship.
Boyfriends/girlfriends you have at that age are usually from your school, so you usually see them most of the day already and they live relatively close by. You’re welcome to see them on the weekends too, even in our home, and you can have privacy in your bedroom, but then they’ll go home for the night and we’ll have time to ourselves as a family. It’s important to me to teach that balance and to enforce it to a certain extent so that they have time to ease into the dating world.
To me, it’s the same concept as telling them that they have to put some money from their first partime job into a savings account. By setting that boundary for them they’ll have some time to adjust to having the money (or relationship) before they’re turned loose to navigate it entirely by themselves.
I really applaud this post. I remember being told years ago, patronisingly, that I’d reconsider my liberal views on teen sexuality when I became a father of a teenage girl (the patriarchal sexism inherent in this very common viewpoint is so very blatant, isn’t it?). At this point I’m the father of a girl who will soon turn nine (plus one about to turn two, for that matter), and I haven’t changed my viewpoint one bit. I guess we’ll see: maybe in four years I’ll suddenly turn into a typical patriarchal dad…but I really hope not.
My mom has always been fond of telling me that I’ll change my views on teen sex once my daughter gets a little older (at which point I’m supposed to want to lock her in a tower, I guess?) My husband has been told the same thing.
Your post makes me incredibly sad for your two daughters. As a father, it is your duty and responsibility to protect your girls. I come from a completely opposite perspective believing and knowing that sex was created for marriage between a man and a woman. Any deviation from that will only harm your girls. Its sad to me to think that you will actually encourage them as teens to explore their sexuality under the “safety” of your home. This will not promote self confidence and security in them, it will only confuse and hurt them.
Yes, my poor girls…I’d better start raising them by the Bible’s rules, right away. Like Deuteronomy 22, for instance. I’m sure you support enforcing those commandments with one’s daughters, right?
/snark
I suppose you must believe, in the face of all evidence, that the world is 6,000-odd years old? Otherwise you’d know that sex has been around far, far longer than marriage has.
I also noted the heterosexist premise of your “between a man and a woman” remark. Maybe one or both of my daughters will marry another woman; and if so, I will be a happy and proud father at their weddings. (I will not however walk my daughters down the aisle, not even if they asked me, because I find that tradition repellent in its patriarchal sexism.)
In response to “raising them by the Bible’s rule…Deut. 22…” We (Christians) are no longer under the rule of the Mosaic law. This truth is stated very clearly and in a variety of ways (see Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13, 24-25; 4:21; 5:1, 13; 2 Cor. 3:7-18). If you would like to better understand why Christians are no longer under the rule of the Mosaic law, this website may be very informative for you: http://bible.org/article/mosaic-law-its-function-and-purpose-new-testament
In terms of your opinion (not scientific evidence as none was noted by you) of how old the Earth is, what does that have to do with sex inside the boundary of marriage yielding the best possible outcome for your girls (in terms of emotionally, physically & safety purposes)? Do you want for your daughters to be protected, honored, esteemed and loved unconditionally in the secure and safety of a loving & committed relationship? The only place that can truly happen is in the sanctity of marriage*. I have personally seen evidence in people’s lives (as noted in the emotional turmoil, hurt & destruction, even death) that supports my belief.
*I would like to state that of course simply being married doesn’t by default create this type of relationship…but it does at least provide the foundation, the framework if you will, upon which one may be built! One’s own worldview, core values and beliefs will play a pivotal part in how a marriage relationship will “play out”. Take for instance that worldview of an active/committed Muslim: his/her relationship will/should be starkly different than that of a Bible believing Christ follower (Christian), as men & women are viewed quite differently in their opposing spiritual belief systems.
It’s funny how none of the cites for Mosaic Law supposedly no longer applying actually come from the Gospels. (Hint: Jesus would not have been happy about the way Paul perverted his movement; this is btw what Thomas Jefferson firmly believed as well.) On the other hand, Jesus directly endorses one of the harsh Mosaic laws in Matthew 15 and Mark 7; and in Matthew 5 (17-20) he makes it clear that “not one jot nor one tittle” of the law is in any way negated by his coming, and that “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Later in Matthew 5 (verses 31-32) we learn that divorce is an absolute no-no, so Ronald Reagan is definitely going to hell. But for that matter, every President but Franklin Pierce is in trouble because they took an oath of office which included “I swear…so help me God”, which is specifically prohibited by Jesus in the very next verses after those about divorce (33-37).
But I digress. You accused me of not providing scientific evidence that the Earth is far more than a few thousand years old. I find the “young Earth” idea so self-evidently preposterous that it strikes me as superfluous to provide such proof. But since you asked, here ya go:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
As to why this is relevant to the question of marriage, you said that “sex was created for marriage between a man and a woman.” Since the institution of marriage is estimated by scientists to be less than 5,000 years old (http://www.innovainc.com/newsletter/pdfs/12-6-june04.pdf), and “sex” (meaning “sexual intercourse”) has existed for over a BILLION years (http://fire.biol.wwu.edu/trent/alles/Proterozoic.pdf), it’s safe to say that in fact sex was NOT created for marriage between a man and a woman. Even if we presume that you were referring only to sex between humans, anatomically modern humans have been around for a hundred thousand years (http://astrobiology.nasa.gov/ask-an-astrobiologist/question/?id=1522), and so for over 95 percent of that time there was no such thing as marriage.
So in summary: in response to your lauding the “sanctity of marriage”, I say “sanctity, schmanctity”. LOL
I don’t quite understand your interpretation of Scripture, as it seems quite taken out of context. The Bible must be understood in its entirety, not taken verse by verse in order to support your point. According to Scripture, we live under Grace…THE theme of the New Testament, Paul’s AND Jesus message throughout. If you’d like to discuss this in more detail privately, I’d love to do that. But really, I don’t understand why you are trying dissuade me using the very text that defines my worldview? That doesn’t make sense to me.
Back to the point of this article, I’ve asked you on several occasions and I’ll ask you again. Do you want for your daughters to be protected, honored, esteemed and loved unconditionally in the secure and safety of a loving & committed relationship? How are you (or will you be) addressing the unique emotional & mental component of sex with your daughters so that they may be protected, esteemed & lovingly cared for? How does your approach (worldview) address these qualities (if they are important to you)? How does your system, or institution provide the basis, structure and propensity for such qualities to thrive & exist?
I’m not speaking for SlackerInc, just myself. But I want all my kids to find the love they want (one of them has already suggested he may not want a “living with another person” relationship, and I’ll respect that if it’s his choice). I want them to be respected and cared for by many people. And in the context of the OP, I want them to know that sex has practically nothing to do with any of those things. It can be part of those things, but they don’t hinge on sex and sex doesn’t hinge on them. If my daughter wants to have safe, consensual, meaningless sex I’ll be as happy for her as I will be for my sons to do the same. I will make sure she finds her worth within herself and has sex because it’s fun, not to win the approval of anyone else. Just as I will with my sons. In fact, as I already am teaching them.
The success of my relationships has never had anything to do with when I started having sex, and I see no reason why it should for my kids. And yes, I live in a relationship in which I am cherished, loved, supported and respected. I don’t wish to be protected, I’m a big girl and can protect myself and my children (even from enormous spiders of which I am phobic, as I demonstrated to myself and my daughter this morning).
What she said. (Ariane, you may not have been speaking for me, but I’ll definitely co-sign this!)
JLove, you want to discuss Scripture, I’m game. The Bible is a fascinating collection of documents, bit of a hobby of mine. Email me at alankingsleythomas@gmail.com .
What does “OP” stand for? Also, could you explain what “meaningless sex” is?
“OP” is “original post”. In this case, the post PhDiP wrote up at the top of the screen.
Conversely to Ariane, I can’t speak for her, but to me “meaningless sex” means sex with someone you don’t have a deep emotional connection to, but are just doing it mainly for fun, for the physical pleasure it offers. (Is that really an alien concept to you, or were you being snarky?)
OP = Original Piece – the article we are all commenting on.
Meaningless sex is the kind of sex with no more emotional involvement than a desire to have fun and make sure your partner has fun. It requires respect, but not love. It has nothing to do with a relationship, it’s just the enjoyment of bumping uglies. Not everyone likes meaningless sex, but it can be lots of fun. On the other hand, it can be a complete disaster if a person conflates sex and love, which is why I want my kids to have a very clear understanding of their demarcation.
I’m sorry, this is just too much to type and its getting confusing to reply to certain comments. To be completely honest, this is too overwhelming for me on several levels. For one, I feel deeply saddened for these parents who have posted on here who have such “progressive” ideas about sex. And actually, I feel even more sad for their children who will be brought up in such an environment where sex has no value. Meaningless, to put it in your own words.
And yes, I do understand the concept of “meaningless sex”, but I do not agree that there is such a thing. I do not believe sex can be meaningless, because as SlackerInc and I have already established, when people have sex it is not just a visceral act. We have emotions. We have feelings. We have desires. Needs. Wants. Expectations. And I’m not talking about one’s sex drive anymore. We have a mind that cannot just block something out when we choose to. Our bodies & minds (and hearts) are inseparable. So how then, can it ever just be, meaningless?
I think it’s unfair to the “progressive” POV to ascribe it as taking away all meaning from all sex. What I am saying, and I suspect Ariane would agree, is that sex can be extremely meaningful and emotionally intimate, but it doesn’t have to be. Here’s an analogy for you: a back massage from my wife feels good in my muscles, but it also feels very loving and emotionally warm. A massage from a massage therapist does not contain any of that emotional power, but it is still something valid on its own terms and it doesn’t prevent me from having intimacy with my wife when she massages my back. Right?
See to me, massage and sexual intercourse are two very different things. I understand what you are trying to communicate, and its very clear that we have very different starting points. I view sex as sacred, inherent with meaning. Separating the two (physical from the non-physical part of a person) is not possible.
I have thirteen-year-old and nine-year-old daughters. I think there is a big difference between how boys view sex and girls view sex. And these differences are just part gender differences (some of these brain differences are noted in “Nurture the Nature”. I would be very concerned if my girls entered into a sexual relationship in their teens – I definitely don’t think that they would be ready for potential negative consequences like pregnancy, std’s or a boy calling it quits after a week of fooling around. So I really hope that they won’t want to enter into that type of relationship that early. The mom’s in the Mother/Daughter groups I belong to feel the same way – we want our girls to focus on building themselves and their skills, not being side-tracked by relationships. I also agree that their is a HUGE difference between 16 and 18 and other ages – along with individual differences.
I didn’t have “boy-friends” in high school and I am not a social misfit – I met my husband in college and we have been together for 24 years. I have always had male and female friends, so truly that comment from SlackrInc stems from fear rather than any kind of truth. Relationships with both genders are important – not dating. What is the point of dating, except for to find a potential mate? If the girl is really ready for that, I guess that’s fine (although I personally wouldn’t be happy with the choice.) I don’t know if a lot of girls really are, despite all the cultural encouragement.
Encouraging friends of both genders is great. I am not sure about the sleep over part. I have to think about that more and discuss that with my husband and get back to you on that part. Because that’s a family decision and would really depend on the situation at hand. I am definitely for any friends and/or serious partners being part of the family no matter what the age. For college I would definitely let a boyfriend sleep over. For high school age – I am not so sure. Oh, my husband just walked in and said if they are older, sure in separate rooms! Wouldn’t make it a habit. He agreed it would be situational.
Susan, I’ve never met anyone IRL who didn’t have non-platonic relationships of some kind before college, and who was happy about it. Most people I know did have such relationships in high school; but I do know some who did not and it was not by their choice and is a painful memory to them.
Maybe you just need to broaden your acquaintance base… I know many people who never dated or had sex until college and are well adjusted and happy about their decisions.
I was a little confused by your statement, “I’ve never met anyone IRL who didn’t have non-platonic relationships of some kind before college, and who was happy about it.” because of the double negative (no criticism – just want to make sure I understand you!) I think you meant that you didn’t know anyone who wasn’t having sex with their boyfriend or girlfriend who was happy about the situation. Is that right? That they would have been happier having sex like some of their peers and they greatly regret that situation?
I guess that makes me wonder about these people. Was it because they weren’t actually have sex or because it was a status thing and therefore they felt left out. I don’t understand what feels painful to them in that situation because one can have deep and satisfying relationships without sex; that statement intrigues me. It seems like it’s about a lot more than engaging or not engaging in a sexual relationship. Perhaps what they were really missing out on was a feeling of deep connection with others in their life. Sex is really about connecting on a very deep and intimate level. But I really don’t know if teenage boys really would get that. Also, I am wondering since you are guy that maybe it is your male friends who have painful memories of feeling left out of the “fun”? Just wondering. Interesting discussion.
I had many non-platonic relationships as a teenager that didn’t involve sex. There was certainly intimacy, but not necessarily sex.
That was actually my point – which was that maybe intimacy was missing and they were recognizing or feeling that absence as a need for “sex”. I think it’s pretty common for teens who don’t have strong relationships with their families to engage more often in sexual activity (at least that’s what I understand from the literature that I have read.) And certainly I agree that sex is not necessary for intimacy – I am simply recognizing that it is one of the deepest forms of intimacy and therefore should be respected as an important and significant interaction.
I’m talking about both male and female friends who didn’t get their “first kiss” (and beyond) until after high school. It wasn’t by their choice, and it isn’t a happy memory.
Also, you’re wrong to think that teenage boys are incapable of connecting to their significant others “on a deep and intimate level”. I did (I fooled arounnd with a number of girls in high school, but I only had intercourse with two serious girlfriends with whom I was seriously involved at the time), and so did other friends of mine. Personally, if anything I had it more romanticised in my high school years than I did later. There were times I would stop something from going beyond “second base” because I didn’t feel I truly “loved” the girl I was with; whereas by my sophomore year of college I saw that as unnecessarily restrictive (and regretted those missed opportunities in retrospect, LOL).
Well, you sound like a great guy. Of course not guys are that way. That’s a generalization.
I didn’t kiss a guy until college and that’s a great memory for me! I l never felt sad in high school. But I went to a Catholic school and my group wasn’t fooling around either so it wasn’t an issue. So I think missing out on a kissing and fooling around as forming seriously bad potential memories for kids is a major generalization. I’ll just go back to saying it all depends on the situation at hand. Life can have so many variable experiences.
I agree with just about everything you said. I was sexually active young (15) and although I’m sure my parents knew (they had to) it was never talked about. I was also never really given “the talk” and I wasn’t even really sure of the mechanics of things before I started dating the boy I would eventually have sex with. It was a situation of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” that I hope to avoid with my children. My parents were conflicted with moral values and knowing their own pasts, so I went uninformed. I plan to inform my son, giving him information and options, but also telling him that I hope that he waits, that I regret having sex so young.
Another aspect you didn’t mention that I think links to this, is the American way of morally rebuffing us into “no sex before marriage.” You know, those good old fashion Southern Baptist morals (that I grew up with, and don’t believe too far from, but hey, I’m a realist). There is nothing wrong for a teen to strive for that, if it’s their personal belief, but my beef comes in when one marries for the first time at 19 so that they can have sex. And then, when divorced at 20 it all seems like such a waste. I don’t say this in a condescending way, I see it happen frequently. I saw it happen among my peers, and in my small community still. Definitely a soapbox issue for me, but I’ll stop there.
I have heard young adults who want to wait until marriage for sex, “I can’t wait to get married so I can have sex.” Truly upsetting.
Ah, yes, you described my experience! I married the first guy I had sex with because I thought that you were supposed to marry the person you loved–period. And I felt so guilty about the sexual relationship (nevermind that we’d been friends for a year, that I was in college, that we talked it through beforehand, used protection, and had a really mutually appreciative and respectful relationship; it was “slutty” according to my mother). So what happened? I was married at 20 and divorced at 25. And we’re still friends. We just outgrew each other. He’s now very happy in his relationship, with children, as am I. If we had only avoided the whole marriage thing, we could have simply had a strong, healthy, college relationship, and ended the whole thing when appropriate. Instead, I spent years feeling guilty for wanting out, and he spent years trying to figure out what he did wrong.
Now I’ve watched all five of my siblings commit to serious relationships in their late teens and marry by 21 (with two exceptions: my gay brother can’t marry and has been with his partner for 12 years. Whew! That one worked out. And my youngest brother’s fiance just broke up with him. He’s CRUSHED, but I think it’s the best thing that could possibly have happened to him, even though she’s a sweet girl). I guarantee you it’s about sex–every time. Making decisions about marriage before your frontal lobe is fully developed, just so that you can meet your biologically-driven sexual needs, is a terrible idea. And it breaks my heart to see how puritanical notions of sex driven by religious restrictions (yup, brought up Baptist here, too) can cause so many problems for these people who are so special to me.
Only have a toddler myself, but my partner and I are already talking about our philosophies on how to help him grow up with healthy attitudes about sexuality. Thanks for the post!
I think that the “They are going to do it wherever they are” thing is flawed, whether it comes to sex or drugs. Kids need boundaries and rules and even if they do sneak around, home should be safe. So letting any old dude sleep over or allowing your teen to smoke and drink at home is a no go. No matter how much they protest, teenagers really do want to feel protected and like they have that one place as a safe haven from pressures.
That said, a longterm boyfriend or girlfriend is another story, as the people we date seriously become our family. I was allowed to have my serious boyfriend spend the night – He even lived with us for awhile, in my room, when his home situation was less than great. Obviously my mother knew we were having sex and it wasn’t a big deal so long as he was respectful and followed the house rules, same as any of my friends. I actually think it’s brilliant for parents to allow boyfriends to hang around. It becomes pretty apparent to everyone that it’s a bad fit if the person you are dating doesn’t mesh with your family, and I think that the ‘wrong’ guy is going to be reluctant to sleep over anyway. It is the guy or girl you sneak off to see, not the one you want to introduce to your parents, who is likely to be a problem!
Janine:
I disagree. I think kids need to be taught and guided to make good decisions. I don’t think that strict boundaries and rules provide anything more than an arbitrary obstacle for them to overcome.
I hope that my home will be a safe place where my teens feel like they can ask questions and try things without pressure and uncertainty. We also plan to let our kids drink alcohol at home, so that we can teach them responsible alcohol consumption.
I agree that kids to need some boundaries and rules – Annie – you’re not there yet; my oldest is almost 14 and believe me they are going to push and test. That doesn’t mean being strict and I don’t even think Janine was suggesting strict boundaries. By setting up values and rules one does set up a safe space for a teen. That doesn’t mean go overboard, though.
Teaching a teen safe alcohol consumption with a meal is a good idea. Would you let your teen just crack open a beer and drink and have a cigarette any old afternoon whenever they feel like it? I doubt it – because there are boundaries that you would probably set. Although, I don’t know. Maybe you would feel comfortable with that scenario. Personally, smoking would absolutely not be tolerated in my home and my girls know that I view smoking and heavy drinking as not healthy for one’s body. That is a value that we choose to set.
Sure, I would set some boundaries, but the boundaries I would set for my teens would probably be similar to those I would set for any family member/house guest.
I expect people in my home to be respectful of others, so that means no smoking in the house, no violent behaviour, no excess noise, etc.
I do think some age appropriate boundaries are useful too. For example, we kept all junk food and sweets away from our kids as babies and we still limit them now. However, once they are at an age where they can go and buy their own sweets as soon as they are out of our sight, boundaries like that have less relevance. By then, if I haven’t taught them to self-regulate and seek balance, setting boundaries in my house won’t make a difference.
I really agree with you about these other issues too. Alcohol was not forbidden fruit for me as a teen, although drinking and driving was, and I think as a result I approached it better than many of my peers (who would jump in the car and race home from a party to make curfew, whereas I was encouraged to call home and say that I needed to sober up before driving).
However, I’ve read in recent years about how the progressive parents, who would rather their teens and their friends drink safely at home instead of driving out to a bonfire in a field somewhere, have gotten in trouble with other parents, and thus the law, for providing alcohol to others’ kids. How do you intend to navigate this part of it? I personally would love to live in some intentional community with other parents who shared these progressive values, but I don’t see it happening.
I will make the rules for my kids, but not for anyone else’s kids. I don’t intend to be a source of alcohol for underage kids that are not my own. I think that will be the biggest challenge of all to navigate, i.e. dealing with relationships between my kids and the kids of parents who aren’t as progressive on these issues. Perhaps we’ll have to move back to Europe before they are teens.
I totally agree with you that our job is to help our kids grow up to think for themselves and to be able to control their own behavior and responses (I think that’s what you mean by self-regulate). That happens over time. For some of us we are still learning that as adults! When we have good relationships with our children that are filled with respect and trust, that is a good base for them to grow from and as a parents we know we can trust them because we know them well and they do have balance from their upbringing and they can bring that forth into the world. So I agree with you there.
And I agree that boundaries should not be arbitrary. But teens do seek boundaries. My daughter right now sometimes seeks things to “rebel” against as she determines her own thoughts and ideas and finds out who she is. And she tests whether we will follow through as parents. I’ll definitely be interested to know what you think when your kids are in that age range because it is really different.
I believe that there needs to be both reasonable boundaries and an open trusting relationship together. My husband and I talk about the kids he knew growing up whose parents were the “cool” parents who let kids smoke and drink in their homes and let parties happen without supervision – and those folks turned out pretty messed up. So there has to be a happy medium somewhere.
Yes – if children have been brought up to respect themselves (and others), then often those boundaries becomes less necessary as they grow into young adults, as it is the way they have learnt to live anyway… that is my experience anyway. My eldest son is 18 now.
Fantastic post – so well articulated!
Great post. I remember my teenage years like it was yesterday (I’m only 25) and I remember my mom did not let my boyfriend (now husband BTW) in my room, or allowed us to go to the movies, or allowed me to go to his house. We had sex anyway, with my mom in the house, outside, in his car, at school… We were mature enough to be in a loving relationship, so much so that we married at 18 and are still married and raising our almost 2 year old today. I want to be truthful, realistic, and open about sex with my kids but honestly i’m not so sure about the sleeping over part. I just think especially for kids in school they need to have some sort of break at least for homework and sleep I mean if iI had no boundaries as a teenager my romance (and hormones!) would have consumed every minute of my life!
Yvonne:
I think we also need to teach our children balance and self-control, which includes good study habits. When I went away to university, I felt like I was incredibly well prepared and able to balance my social life with my academic requirements.
There were other students, however, who had their daily homework assignments handed to them on a platter by their teacher and supervised by their parents until the time they graduated from high school and they had no idea how to manage it themselves when they were simply told, mid-term Oct 30, term paper Nov 25, final exam Dec 15. They went wild, going out all the time, skipping classes (because no one took attendance) and then trying to cram things in at the last minute and failing.
All that to say that I think boundaries are necessary, but I hope to work with my kids to teach them how to plan their time, budget their money, and be smart in their relationships with others.
I liked what Yvonne said! I see what those who are open to it are saying but I just don’t think I could do it. But I wasn’t sure why and maybe it is just the boundaries thing – I think parents help with boundaries by having some rules and expectations as long as kids are still kids.
My neighbor’s teen daughter was having sex with her boyfriend and asked if he could stay over and her father said, “I just don’t want to see Ian while I’m eating my breakfast.”
Wow, I´m really surprised that this is such a big issue in the US. Thinking hart, while reading through all posts, I can not recall anyone around here, who forbid a sleepover without having some really big personal problems (totally unagreeable guy etc.) with the boyfriend.
Ingrid from Germany
Ingrid, that squares with the tolerant attitude in your neighbour Germany. The U.S. still suffers from its Puritan heritage: it is, of all advanced industrialised nations, the one with the highest religiosity. Hard to take for an atheist like myself.
I always roll my eyes at the Republican candidates who warn that Obama wants to make the U.S. more like Europe. I’m like “I sure hope so–that would be great!”
Ugh, I meant to say “in your neighbour The Netherlands” (as described in the OP). Oops!
Ingrid:
That fits with my experience in Germany too.
Great post! I remember having sex in my husband’s parent’s basement after family meals while he still lived at home when we were dating! And they thought since they forbade it it wasn’t happening! Ha! Then when we announced we were moving in together his darling mum said she was worried I would get pregnant so we said we couldn’t possibly be doing it more than we were already! Lol
I am writing this as the mother of a 16 year old girl, who has her boyfriend sleeping upstairs with her at this moment.
He lives 100 miles away and they can only see each other if he stays over. It is the third time he has stayed and so far they have decided they are not ready to have sex, so have just cuddled. They are both virgins. My daughter has made preparations for when they do decide to go ahead, she has visited the family planning clinic and has got herself on the pill and also has condoms, but they are not in any hurry, neither is completely sure they are ready yet. Because we have a very close and loving relationship, I have been privileged to share her thoughts on this process.
I have also discussed the sleeping arrangements with her boyfriend’s mother who has a similar relationship with her son. We both decided that they were competent to make this decision themselves and that it was their business not ours.
It works for us.
I take issue with the implication in your last sentence that the only option other than sexual libertinism is to make sex “sound dirty”. My husband and I are going to strive to teach our children that sex is only for marriage not because it is “dirty” but because it is so incredibly beautiful and beautiful and sacred. That it is a gift from God to bond spouses together in a special way. My parents never “forbade” teenage sex…but they (and the Bible) made it clear that sex outside of marriage wasn’t God’s plan. There were never any threats or anything, and I know that my parents wouldn’t have kicked me out or anything even if I had been sleeping with every guy in school. But because of my faith, I believed, and still believe, that it is worth waiting until marriage. (Throughout the years my parents actually took in several girls who had gotten pregnant out of wedlock and didn’t have supportive families and fed, clothed, housed, etc these ladies and their children).
My husband didn’t have any girlfriends in high school (although he did have one before me in college) and we were both virgins on our wedding night. And quite happy about it.
I can tell some of your commenters don’t know very many conservative Catholics, evangelicals, and Mormons, but I can assure you all the ones I’ve ever known(which is a LOT of them) are very happy about their decisions to remain virgins and even for some, unkissed, until marriage(as a Catholic I don’t believe there it is morally superior to abstain from kissing prior to marriage, but I respect the right of others to choose to do so). I’ve never heard anyone regret saving themselves for marriage!
Anyway, I know you and many of your readers don’t have a religious basis for believing one way or another on sexual issues, so I applaud you for discussing and thinking about the issues. I’m sure glad I don’t have to try to figure it all out for myself without relying on religious teaching and tradition of centuries of religious thinkers. I’m sure if I did I would come up with pretty lousy solutions! It’s clear, despite the differences in our beliefs, that you care immensly for your children and strive in all things to do what’s best for them, and that is awesome.
Sorry, I probably should have said “make premarital sex sound dirty”, but even then it wasn’t intended as a generalization. It was more of a poke at some of the comments on my facebook page when I originally posted this article. Ones like this:
“I’m sure glad I don’t have to try to figure it all out for myself without relying on religious teaching and tradition of centuries of religious thinkers.”
Your writing makes it sound like you are intelligent, which makes it especially difficult for me to understand this attitude. “I’m sure glad I don’t have to think for myself, but instead have a collection of ancient patriarchal religious texts to tell me what to do”. Srsly?
Good question! It might make more sense if you think of it more like the analogy of math; it would be really difficult to build a computer if you had to think of all of the current mathematical knowledge that exists today on your own. It’d probably be impossible for 99.9% of people, if not more-most of us wouldn’t get past algebra, let alone formulating geometry proofs or doing calculus equations. But because we can look at the math theories and formulas developed through the centuries and test them out ourselves, we can move on to more complex math. And we still have to think to do math-we just don’t have to figure out why the Pythagorean theory works to be able to use it. And we don’t have to come up with it on our own.
I know that I don’t actually have time to sit around and ponder every moral issue I’ll come across in my life in sufficient depth to reach the “right” answer, and it is nice to have centuries of writings and tradition that I trust and can turn to-thousands of people who were intelligent and with life experiences I don’t have who have thought much longer than I have about these things and built upon each others work to develop a coherent idea of what the “best” answer probably is and lots of ideas to back up why they came to that answer. People like St Augustine, who was actually quite sexually promiscuous prior to his conversion and therefore formed his opinions based on life experiences I don’t have. And many people way smarter than I am. Because we share a common theology and a belief that there is an objective right and wrong on many issues (a belief I realize many people today don’t share), I trust these thinkers. Plus, I can read their writings to see their train of thought if it ever doesn’t seem quite right.
Does that make more sense?
It’s an interesting premise, and you argued it well. But it rests on a faulty premise, or faulty analogy. Pythagoras, Newton, Leibniz, et al *proved* their theorems. And the postulates/axioms upon which those theorems rest are not contested by the vast, vast majority of mathematicians. But the majority of people in the world do not believe St. Augustine et al are valid sources to guide contemporary ethical behaviour.
SlackerInc, I think some fundamental questions must be answered before the discussion above can be truly be clarified: What is the nature and purpose of sex between two people? What is special and unique about it?
Interesting question. I can see it from multiple angles. In one sense, there’s nothing “special and unique” about it: sexual intercourse has been going on for eons. Insert Tab A into Slot B. But OTOH I do believe there can be great emotional intimacy between two people who are having sex. On the other other hand, I don’t necessarily believe that if the intimacy is not so great, it is an abomination or some soul-destroying experience.
Clearly the reason sex exists to begin with is for reproduction. But that does not mean it can’t be enjoyed for non-reproductive reasons by a species (humans) whose brains have evolved to such a degree that they can enjoy many pursuits that do not relate directly to Maslow’s lower levels (food, shelter, reproduction). Our ears for instance evolved to detect danger, to facilitate communication, etc.; but we can still enjoy music despite its most likely being what evolutionary biologists call a “spandrel”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandrel_(biology)
So it is with non-procreative sex, whether gay sex, sex with contraception, or sex after menopause.
Actually, you have made my point exactly-thank you! As you noted– sex is not just carnal and reproductive in its nature. It is extremely emotional and erotic (of the mind). With that being agreed upon, we cannot simply approach our children’s understanding and exploration of their sexuality purely as a developmental stage they are entering. We should not simply say our duty as a parent is to provide a “safe” place for them to make their bed and lie in it (sexually & metaphorically speaking).
So I’m curious, how are you (or will you be) addressing the unique emotional & mental component of sex with your daughters so that they may be protected, esteemed, lovingly cared for? How does your worldview address these qualities (or maybe you don’t care about these things for your girls since IDK you personally)? How does your system, or institution provide the basis, structure and propensity for such qualities to exist?
My children are not yet teens (we have about 10 years before we have to worry about this!), but I believe that open, honest communication is best and also it comes down to respect. For example, guests need to behave with a code of honor while in the house–no staying for a week, no violence, no drinking underage, no smoking in the house, etc. I believe it’s also important to provide your teen with information about safe sex and contraceptives. That doesn’t mean I’m just going to put a giant bowl of condoms in the hallway, though!!
My parents were fairly conservative religiously and did not approve of sleepovers. My brother was the only one of us to have “sleepovers” at his girlfriends house and my parents didn’t like that very much but respected his choice to make his own decisions (while voicing their disapproval in other ways). Me, I just snuck boys into the house and then shooed them out the window.
What do you see as the problem with putting a “giant bowl of condoms in the hallway”? If you want to provide your teen with *information* about safe sex and contraceptives, why not the condoms themselves?
Haha, yes, good point.
These posts really have me thinking. Even though my boys are 3, 5, and in utero I know that I’ll have three teenage boys living under my roof one day and I need to prepare for that now. I talk openly about our bodies and their functions and also about girls and how they are the same/different (eg, physical differences,’same capabilities). I will allow girls to sleep over as long as its done by abiding our house rules and respecting the values of everyone (including the girls family)
Great post, and I agree with you completely. in terms of helping them to make the decision when they’re ready for it, and not be pressured into it, and not be so immature that they really aren’t aware of the consequences and capable of using protection and so on, is to make it clear that if you can’t talk about sex (and protection) with your partner, you probably aren’t ready to have sex. This goes hand in hand with requiring an enthusiastic yes, rather than an absence of no, in order to consider that you have consent.
“and so on, is to make it clear that if you can’t talk about sex (and protection) with your partner, you probably aren’t ready to have sex. This goes hand in hand with requiring an enthusiastic yes, rather than an absence of no, in order to consider that you have consent.”
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. My mother’s answer, to my question of “OK well when IS someone “ready”?” answered with: when you can buy your own condoms, and answer we both consider brilliant looking back on it.
And HELL YEAH for enthusiastic consent! <3
My feeling is that refusing to buy a teen condoms, on the rationale that if they are ready to have sex, they are ready to buy condoms, may result in their waiting for sex, or more likely it may lead to condomless sex.
And the logic just doesn’t really strike me as all that “brilliant” anyway. Would you say to your child “you shouldn’t go to college until you can pay for it yourself”? How about “you shouldn’t eat food until you pay for it yourself”? Parents pay for a lot of things for their kids. How is this one magically different?
Being ready to have sex isn’t about having the cash to buy the condoms, it’s about being mature enough to walk into a store and buy them.
As to whether I agree with that being a brilliant answer, I think it is, if the question from the kid was a genuine “How do I know?” as opposed to a “When will you let me?”. Ginger Baker wasn’t claiming that this was a universally brilliant answer, but that it was brilliant in that particular case.
Personally, I can certainly imagine a situation in which a teenager can discuss sex with their partner, but can’t buy their own condoms for any number of reasons. Therefore, I’d run with having the stash of condoms available rather than expecting my kids to buy them. Still, the maturity to deal with protection is a prerequisite for being ready for sex, and the message I’ll be sending my kids. It makes sense to set expectations high for teenagers to make mature, sensible decisions, but to have safety nets (like a stash of condoms) for when they don’t quite get there.
Yes, this. It had nothing to do with the ability to pay for or otherwise access condoms, and it wasn’t about permission. I was asking because I was looking for guidance on “how do I *know* that *I’m* ready?” and the answer I got – which I still think is brilliant :p – is “when you are not ashamed to get condoms.” THAT was the underlying (and very clear in the context of our conversation at the time) message.
What it really gets to, is “when you can own your own choices.” It is absolutely what I will (and, to an age-appropriate extent, do) teach my kids.
That makes a little more sense. I still disagree, though.
It can be embarrassing for a teen, or even someone older, to walk into a pharmacy or supermarket and hand a cashier a pack of condoms. In a small town, there may be no way to do this without safeguarding one’s privacy, and is it the whole town’s business whether 16 year old Sally is having sex? I think you’re still flirting with one of the reasons behind teen pregnancy here, and I’d rather just err on the side of caution and not mind if they get the condoms from the discreetly refilled bowl in the bathroom.
Why are ya’ll debating about where to get condoms?! Hello! Planned Parenthood! Free…everything…including abortions in case these kids-uh… I mean teens really don’t understand the implications of having sex.
Also, I’d add that by making the answer to “when are you ready?” “when you’re not ashamed to buy condoms”, you are saying that an introvert should wait longer to have sex, which doesn’t seem particularly fair as that introvert may be more mature and responsible in many ways; and you’re also allowing the community one lives in to have a big say there. If the community tends to engage in “slut shaming” toward adolescent female sexual agency (and typically not as much toward adolescent male sexuality), why should that be the decisive factor about whether a girl is ready to have sex?
I would agree with this. I think being ready to talk to your partner about birth control/protection is important, but being ready to go out and buy it in public is an entirely different thing. And yes, the community does matter. When I was doing my MBA, my period was late one month even though I was on the pill. I was panicked and went to buy a pregnancy test just to be sure. Of course, I happened to run into the biggest gossip in my class while I was there and didn’t really need rumours circulating that I might be pregnant. Since then, I always prefer to make sensitive purchases in an out-of-the-way store so that I’m not likely to run into people.
I completely agree with that too – that’s what I was alluding to when I said I can imagine a situation in which someone can talk to their partner, but not buy their own condoms. The local community is a significant factor. Having said that, my kids are growing up in a world where online shopping avoids a whole lot of that sort of thing. Perhaps I should make sure there is a family condom purchasing credit card?
Ha, that’s funny because I had thought of the online thing but then figured high school kids can’t have their own credit cards. Or can they? You see sometimes movies where rich kids (girls mainly) have a credit card; but isn’t that supplied by their parents? Can kids pay cash to buy a debit card with a certain amount on it that can be used for online shopping?
Yeah, if they have a bank account, they can have a debit visa or mastercard which will allow for online purchases. Or parents can provide one, but I’m thinking that would really only work if the parents didn’t oversee the statements, because while as a teenager I’d have happily snarfed condoms from a cupboard, I wouldn’t have bought them on something my parents could track. Not logical or sensible, but then I was a teenager.
I’ve been thinking about it for a long time. My parents are Catholic, so it was very clear to me that until our marriage, we would sleep separately under their roof. His family is liberal, but we followed the same arrangements with them.
In another post, you talked about the difficulties with the “lightswitch” on the wedding night. I would say that fits our experience. Our wedding weekend was a rushed and stressful event, and a part of me wishes we had allowed ourselves to naturally consummate the relationship, some relaxing time during our long engagement.
As a UU, I’m not convinced that sexuality should be confined to marriage. So I can certainly see making sure that condoms are available. But I struggle with allowing it to take place in our house during high school. I worry that that’s too early.
OTOH, I want my son to be safe. You make good points about being able to monitor who he’s with, how many people. Another consideration is sexuality and the society we live in. If my son turns out to be gay, he’ll need a safe haven.
The unhusband and I have discussed this and we have agreed to allow our children to have sex in our home from the age of 16 on. I think people are just grossed out by the idea that children will eventually become sexual beings. We made these issues because we are concerned with consent and protection. We don’t want them to believe that sex is something illicit and we feel that they are far more likely to choose to have safe sex, if they are in a familiar environment and feel safe.
I’m not opposed to letting my child’s boyfriend/girlfriend stay over on principle. I agree with what you say about teaching kids how to communicate when they are ready, respect their partners and safe sex. However, I’m not sure how comfortable I would be just at a personal “OMG my baby is having sex!” level. But then, I’ll have to get used to it someday.
My mother actually let a boyfriend of mine move in when I was a senior in high school. I’m not sure how she felt about it emotionally, but I know at the heart of it was a feeling that if she said no without exception, it would have driven a wedge between us (mother and daughter). She preferred to keep communication open and allow me to grow and find my way while she could be there with guidance, if needed.
One friend of mine’s mother had similar views and she would even allow drinking in her home. The thought was teens are going to party, and if it happens at her home then she can monitor for drunk driving and keep kids safer. I’m not sure how I feel about that either. Sounds like a reasonable idea, but then I wouldn’t want to be responsible for other people’s children. However, I do feel that kind of attitude helped us teens become more responsible with drinking and sex sooner. By the time we went to college we had no desire to binge drink and I think we were better about safe, consensual sex. We had had a taste of the “adult” things while still being guided by our parents so there was no need to go wild once we left home.
I’m from the Netherlands and I really agree on this article.
The first time my boyfriend came to my house, my mother sent him to my room (where I was at that moment). Even I was surprised.
Talking about sex was not a taboo and I knew about birthcontrol and where to find it. Because sex was seen as a normal, biological thing, I felt confident about it and was able to make a well-concidered discision about when I was ready to have sex for the first time. My boyfriend was raised in the same way, and although hormones weer flying around, he respected my descision to wait. After 3 months I really felt ready and we had a perfect first time, in my own room. We were using proper birthcontrol (pill and condom) because we knew that we wanted it to be safe.
That boyfriend now is my husband. He is the only one i’ve had sex with.
I am really glad my parents were this open about sex. Teens are having sex anyway and being open about it means your children are less likely to do it with someone you don’t know, in places you don’t want them to be.
Even though we only have a toddler (and one on the way), this has been a frequent topic of conversation in my home.
My husband was raised in a sleepover-permissive, condoms available home, and I was raised in a “no boys in the bedroom” home. He remained a virgin until university and had very few sexual partners. I read voraciously on the subject of sexuality, was extremely sexually liberal in my relationships and volunteered as a peer educator at Planned Parenthood and my university. I think we both represented the opposite extremes of our parent’s viewpoints on teen sexuality.
Given my history and values, it is very important to me that my children understand sexuality, sexual health and sexual relationships and feel that they are free to discuss those topics with me and my husband. My husband on the other hand feels like it is a non-issue, not to be discussed (and I suspect will feel more restrictive if our one on the way turns out to be a girl). I’m sure we’ll find a balance by the time this becomes relevant, as we talk openly about it, but I am just fascinated by the way that we each adopted an opposing position to that of our parents’.
I will say though, that for me, sex is one thing and sleeping over is another. I’m not entirely sure why, but I’m more comfortable with the idea of sex happening under my roof than regular sleepovers. I’m a person who needs a lot of personal space, so I think maybe I’m imposing that on my children in their future.. I want to make sure they feel like they have space to be alone in their homes, without pressure to be with their boyfriend/girlfriends all the time, and sometimes “rules” are an easy out for kids.. you know?
That’s a good point–I’ve heard the same argument made for having rules in college dorms against boyfriends or girlfriends sleeping over. I’m not sure where I come down on that but it is a valid consideration.
I think that is where we need to know our children and work with them to find a solution that works best. We bought our son have a Nintendo DS and originally we had planned to let him play with it on school nights as long as his homework was done. In the end, it was such a huge obsession, causing temper tantrums each night when it was time to turn it off, that we ended up making it a weekend only activity. If teen sleepovers were causing a similar obsession, perhaps we would limit them to weekends only too.
I agree with you about raising confident kids with strong values and self respect. I want to be open with my kids about sex, love and relationships and I plan to teach them all I can, and arm them with knowledge so that they can make smart choices. I will be open to contraception and will help them in any way they let me. BUT I’m still not crazy about sleepovers. I think it all depends on the kid and on the relationship. Whether or not I feel that they are mature and respectful enough to sleep together in our family home. I’m not naive about teenagers (I used to be one!) but I don’t think we should just allow them to have sleepovers whenever they want.
I’m not totally sure about letting my daughter’s boyfriend (or girlfriend!) sleep over – I will have to wait until we are approaching that issue before I decide. I think even if I let sex happen in my house, it will probably still happen in other places too (car, park, etc.) I know for sure that sex will be talked about a lot in our household. As a doula, I’m usually discussing many topics related to sex at the dinner table anyway
I plan to have condoms available in our house, and will also teach my children how to use them. I hope to also instill good values/self-worth, so that my daughter or son have the confidence to wait if they want to.
Hi Annie,
I accepted my daughters’ sexuality from their infancy, and we’ve always been very open about our respective sex lives. It never occurred to me that they would have sleepovers with partners or potential partners when they were growing up – and I don’t think it occurred to them to ask. But, of course, it wasn’t a topic in the popular press at that time. Were I raising children now, I’d say no. Though we disagree, I believe we all act in good faith when we grapple with parenting issues like this one – the kind that can’t really be covered in a how-to manual. And, I applaud you, Annie, for your unflinching honesty and your willingness – in every post – to take on issues that make me check my ego and rethink my position.
Totally agree with you about this issue, but wanted to comment on something else in the article – did anyone else find the ‘These middle-class mothers’ comment in the subtitle really off-putting? Why should the families’ social class be worthy of comment? It somehow seemed to imply that there was something surprising about middle-class mothers doing this but, hmph, if these were working-class families we wouldn’t be surprised at all, everyone knows what the proletariat is like… Am I just reading too much into it?
No, I think that’s a very valid point. This is tricky, though: if it is in fact true that it is nothing new for lower income families to allow their daughters to do this (and I don’t know if that’s the case or not, but it sounds plausible), then the only newsworthy thing to report would be if it was a new trend among families of a higher socioeconomic class. This would be comparable for instance to a news story in the ’60s reporting on the effect of “The Feminine Mystique” in women’s moving from being housewives to working out of the home. Since the book describes and is aimed at educated, middle class women, and since low income mothers had already been working out of the home due to economic necessity, it would only be newsworthy to report on the trend occurring among the middle class.
Still, it is a touchy subject and can easily be offputting–I do see that as well. Tricky business all around.
(And hello again to you as well, Dr. Sarah.)
Honestly, not yet sure what I will do or how I will feel when my pre-schooler / toddler are teenagers. I hope they will feel comfortable in their sexuality and know that sexual desires are healthy.
The one consideration I have to make is for the other parents. It is their choice to raise their child how they see fit so I would want to make sure they supported the sleepover. If they weren’t aware of it (i.e. fake sleepover at another person’s house), I would definitely not allow it.
{ 1 trackback }