Today I read a post by@curiousdad on his blog over at the Vancouver Sun. He wrote H1N1 flu vaccine: What the skeptics aren’t telling you. In his post he outlines a case for getting the vaccine and especially for getting your kids vaccinated. His post starts out with:
As the H1N1 vaccine starts to become available across the country, it seems like everywhere I turn there’s someone telling me they’re not going to get it — whether it’s friends on Facebook, people on the street or even a columnist in my own paper.
When this happens, I try to be polite and not say anything. After all, everyone has the right to make their own decision about whether to get the vaccine or not. And, if polls are to be believed, those forgoing the vaccine have plenty of company.
But what I really want to say — what would come out of my mouth if I didn’t always bite my tongue quick enough — is this: Are you an idiot?
The evidence in favour of the flu vaccine (much as with routine childhood vaccinations) is so overwhelming and clear that getting the vaccine — and making sure your children get it — seems about as clear and straightforward as buckling up before you go for a drive.
He goes on to explain a number of reasons for getting the vaccine, to express dismay at the natural parenting community who try to avoid dangerous chemicals in their food and personal use products, but that would be willing to let their children be exposed to H1N1. He ends with his strong disapproval of parents who refused to get their kids vaccinated:
It’s one thing to decide not to get the vaccine yourself. But with evidence mounting that kids are particularly vulnerable to this flu strain, not getting them vaccinated, in my view, borders on negligence — no different than failing to buckle them up in the car or put a safety gate across your stairs.
Sounds straight forward right? Perhaps, if you are only listening to certain sources.
My reply
My quick response to him turned out to be quite lengthy. It is not as well articulated perhaps as I usually like my posts to be, but since I went to the trouble of writing it I thought I would share it here too:
There are some very well respected doctors and pediatricians that are questioning the safety of the vaccine and the degree of panic around H1N1, including Dr. Jay Gordon and Dr. Bob Sears. Do their opinions count less than your average family doctor in Canada who is pushing the vaccine? Unlike my doctor who shows up at work, does what the Canadian Pediatric Society tells her to do, and maybe does a bit of continuing education here and there, Dr. Gordon and Dr. Sears and others actively analyze and research these issues.
I’m still on the fence about whether to get the vaccine or not. Also, it isn’t available yet in my area. Not for priority groups, not for the general population. From that perspective we have both (a) the risk of getting H1N1 because we don’t have access to the vaccine and (b) the opportunity to watch and see a bit with regards to any adverse reactions to the vaccine in the areas that have been first to receive the vaccine. The PHAC has promised weekly reports on adverse reactions to the vaccine on fightflu.ca and I am checking each day to see if the first one has been released.
In the meantime, we are taking precautions to try to limit our chances of getting H1N1 and spreading it to others. If we are sick, we stay home. We wash our hands frequently, cough into our sleeves, etc. We are taking significant amounts of Vitamin D. I am taking 5000 IU myself and giving between 1000 IU and 2000 IU per day to the kids. Personally, I feel like taking these types of precautions is likely to be better protection from H1N1 than being put in a crammed enclosed space for 7 hours with a bunch of potentially infected people waiting to get the vaccine. I hope that by the time the vaccine is available in my area they will be taking appointments by phone (like they are in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario) so that people are not exposed to those ridiculous conditions (because the vaccine isn’t immediately effective after getting it, so you can get sick waiting in that stupid line).
Finally, there are vaccines out there that have been approved and later removed from the market when it was discovered that they were causing serious adverse effects that went undetected in testing. That is in vaccines that were thoroughly tested, unlike the H1N1 vaccine which has not been properly tested on children, pregnant women, etc. Don’t believe me? Look up rota virus, which in the United States annually sickens about 2.7 million children younger than five, sends up to 70,000 to the hospital and causes 20 to 70 deaths. One vaccine was pulled from the market in 1999 and another one later introduced has significant concerns/adverse effects. My son was hospitalized for rota virus. It sucked. It was scary. But I’m glad he didn’t have the vaccine.
I am on the fence, but leaning towards getting the H1N1 vaccine for my kids and for myself. However, I think it is smart to:
- ask questions about vaccine safety
- to insist on seeing the weekly reports on adverse affects that the Canadian government promised but that have not materialized yet (especially in the absence of real safety tests )
- to do more to protect yourself than getting into a panicked frenzy about vaccine availability
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but being called an idiot won’t bully me into not questioning things.
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Nicely thought out response.
Thanks! This is what I have been trying to articulate to some friends and family for a while but haven’t been able to say.
We are recovering from the flu as we speak. Yes, it has been a rough week, but we are getting through it.
I do not understand his reference to “natural parents” not wanting to put chemicals in their food but allowing their kids to get the virus. Our personal beliefs are that illnesses are natural and an important part of evolution. Now our bodies are more up to date with the viruses of the world we are better off, imo. To me that is natural. Putting a manmade vax into our bodies because we are afraid does not feel safe to me.
A loophole in our philosophy is when an illness is a result of a manmade ignorance, such as factory farming animals. I wish half the energy of the media frenzy could be spent on restructuring global food systems so that industrial farming was no longer a breeding place for dangerous illnesses.
There seem to be two camps as with almost all issues these days. Vaxing parents cannot fathom how someone could choose to not vax and non-vaxing families can’t believe people are willing to vax. No need to throw insults. Just choose for your family and let people be.
@Hillary:
I agree that the people in the extreme camps on either side are perhaps the most argumentative and judgmental of others decisions. However, I sit somewhere in the middle and have still gotten plenty of venom (mostly from the pro-vax side, but a bit from the anti-vax side too). My children have received all of the recommended childhood vaccinations plus Hep A and Hep B due to risks in countries we travel to.
But…all of those vaccines have gone through extensive testing and we have a good awareness of the risks and side effects. Not perfect, but pretty good. If my daughter was in the age bracket for the Gardasil vaccine, I would probably not be jumping on the bandwagon for her to get that one. I don’t think the case is strong enough that it is needed or that we know enough to say that the risks are sufficiently low. I feel the same way about this H1N1 vaccine.
I agree 100% with your comments! I am not anti-vaccine, and even though my 3 year old has autism, my 1 year old has gotten his vaccines… albeit delayed and will not get his a flu shot this year, nor his MMR until he is 2. It hasn’t been proven that these vaccines, or the most targed possible autism trigger, thimeroral which was/is present in MMR and flu vaccines, but I am not risking it as my children may be genetically predisposed to vaccine injury. But due to a lack of research either way, I am not taking chances.
My daughter was of age when the gardasil vaccine was released, but she did not receive it at that point for the same reasons you state.
Great post!!
I wouldn’t call some one an idiot for making a choice based entirely on their gut, though I don’t think it’s entirely smart, either.
I think the fear we all have about our lives and lack of control we have over most of it can persuade us in many different directions.
Dr. Sears – on his web site anyway – doesn’t seem to question the safety of H1N1
He writes: “How are these vaccines manufactured?
Here is the interesting part. Everyone has been worrying and theorizing about how these BRAND NEW vaccines are going to be made and what new and dangerous ingredients they might contain. Well, what has ended up happening is that these four companies have made their “swine” flu vaccines using the exact same process and ingredients that they’ve used for their regular flu vaccines. All they’ve changed is the strain of the flu germs that go into the vaccine. Not to say that these vaccines are completely chemical free and 100% safe. But we aren’t dealing with brand new flu vaccines here. We are dealing with the same thing we face with flu shots every year: same chemical ingredients, new flu vaccine strains. You can find out more details on how regular flu shots are made in the flu chapter of the vaccine book, and apply that same process to the “swine” flu vaccines.
* Sanofi Pasteur’s pandemic H1N1 vaccine is analogous to their regular flu vaccine Fluzone, a brand that has been in use for several years.
* CSL’s pandemic H1N1 vaccine is analogous to their regular flu vaccine Afluria, a newer player in the flu vaccine market that was first made last year for the 2008/2009 flu season.
* Novartis’s pandemic H1N1 vaccine is analogous to their regular flu vaccine Fluvirin, which has been around for a few years (previously made by Chiron).
* MedImmune’s live nasal spray pandemic H1N1 vaccine is analogous to their regular nasal spray Flumist.
The thing is, at the moment, whether you want this vaccine or not could be a mute point. Getting it may be the tricky part.
@toyfoto:
I’m not planning to make a decision based on my gut. I’m trying to weigh the evidence as best as I can and am pissed off that the government is doing such a fabulous job of telling us how many people are being hospitalized or dying from causes related to H1N1, but not yet releasing any info on the adverse effects.
With regards to Dr. Sears, some of the places where he questions the safety (I don’t say that he says it is unsafe, but he does not say unequivocally that they are safe):
My head hurts. The swine flu shot isn’t available in our area yet. My 2yo has already had her first dose of the seasonal flu and is scheduled to have her second on Monday. At this point my options seem to be: 1. Get her the second seasonal flu shot and skip the swine flu. 2. Get her the second shot and the swine flu for the total of four shots. 3. Skip the second seasonal and opt for the swine flu for a total of three shots.
What a mess. We’d never gotten a flu shot before this year and I let the Pedi talk me into it.
@Sarah: They are not recommending the seasonal flu shot here for anyone under 65 years old.
If it’s worth anything, our pediatrician recommended we stick to the 1 seasonal flu shot for our son, and not do the 2nd dose. She said it should be sufficient; he’s almost 9 months old.
For me the issue is that many people just don’t research and pick up some view or other and then just think they have all the wisdom of this world. Personally, I’m inclined toward the vaccination, because I’ve seen the flu (not of the swine type) kill a healthy young person in just a few hours. I’m terrified of flu now, and I know that this is what influences my view in this respect. And I also know that I may be mistaken, that there are risks to be balanced, the risk associated with flu and the risk associated with a vaccination. What gets to me is the propaganda style discourse around the vaccination. Just give me fact, I don’t need preaching (and your post is in the first category obviously).
Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) is a potential (and rare) side effect of all flu shots.
The only thing that changes on these shots is the virus they are injecting. They are made the same way. Flu viruses mutate, that’s why their effectiveness changes over time and they are always making new ones.
I think they recommend them to pregnant women because the manufacturing ingredients (aside from the virus component) is the same and has been proven effective and safe over time.
There are no 100 safe anythings. Humans of all ages are more likely die in a car crash than from the flu or even have a serious adverse reaction to the shot. I agree that we are polluting our environment, we are endangering sustainability in so many ways. I just think some of the medical progress made – such as vaccines – have done more to add to the length and quality of our lives … maybe so much so that we take them for granted.
@toyfoto:
We have never felt the need to get the seasonal flu vaccine. Even though the risks may be small, they seemed unnecessary. Healthy people don’t usually die from the seasonal flu and I think being sick every once in a while is normal and just part of life.
I have also heard that people who got the seasonal flu vaccine last year are at a greater risk of contracting H1N1 this year, so I’m glad we didn’t get it. I also wonder what will happen next year. This year swine flu…who knows what will come around next year and will the people who got the swine flu vaccine this year be more susceptible to that? To me this sounds similar to the issue with antibiotics – overuse can make them less effective over time. If we keep vaccinating and vaccinating and vaccinating for everything that we possibly can, will our overall resistance be reduced over time and will the things we are exposed to get stronger and stronger over time?
I feel your sentiments and I have similar concerns.
Can you cite where you read that those who got the seasonal flu vaccine last year are at greater risk for H1N1. I’m curious. That assertion doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that I’m wondering how that would work.
@MZ:
I’m glad that you asked me that because it made me go look up the information. The unfortunate thing about looking it up is that I’m now seriously questioning the integrity and transparency of the Canadian government on issue relating to the vaccine.
From the Canadian government on its H1N1 Flu Vaccine FAQs:
From CTV news, citing Dr. Donald Low, an infectious diseases expert at Toronto’s Mount Sinai Hospital:
So the study is still being reviewed and the evidence is unconfirmed. But I’m annoyed that the Canadian government couldn’t say that instead of denying completely that such a study/finding even exists.
Yes, I think your government should have just said that they don’t know the answer. LOTS of research studies get denied for publication and that could very well be the case for this study. I mean, there are all sorts of factors that could explain the result they got that don’t have to do with the vaccine itself. For instance, maybe those who got the flu vaccine last year are more cavalier about health-maintenance behaviors (like washing hands), thinking they are protected from getting sick at all because they had the vaccine. Or maybe the study sample size was so small that it’s possible the bulk of the sample received the vaccine last year because they are more susceptible to getting sick (have compromised immune systems, work somewhere where there is a greater chance of being exposed to viruses, like around kids).
So, I guess I can see why the government said what they did, so that people wouldn’t panic if there is a high rate this study won’t even make it to be published (I don’t know the stats on how many get published, because that depends on the journal, the researcher, the subject, etc.). But, I agree with you, they should have been more upfront because if this study does pass muster then the government will have misinformed everyone.
I feel like the best way to inform ourselves is to cut out the middle man and try to read the studies straight for ourselves, like you are working to do.
You’ve just expressed exactly why I am not in favor of getting the H1N1 vaccine. They are saying anyone born before 1957 has some immunity to this strain. Well, will everyone born after 2009 (and those who got the vaccine) not have immunity in 20 or 30 years when another flu strikes?
Medical progress has done a lot for our society and our overall health, but I feel like this is an area that is a lot more uncharted. The immune system is so complex and we may know generally how it works, but I think there is still plenty we don’t know. I personally know a number of people who swear by ColdFX despite the fact that I’ve watched them get a serious illness every couple of years that knocks them down for a week or more. I don’t take any of that stuff or flu vaccines and I’ve never missed an entire week of work – my theory is my immune system is stronger because I let it do its job without artificially “helping” it.
I’m sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense. Vaccines actually give us natural immunity to disease. By exposing us to just a little bit (not enough to make us sick) the vaccine triggers our immune system to start making antibodies for that illness. Then, if and when we are exposed to it, our bodies already have the ammunition to fight it.
Antibiotics, on the other hand, just kill the bacteria which then becomes resistant. Viruses don’t become resistant to vaccinated people. Flu strains do change from year to year but that has nothing to do with vaccines — they’ve been doing that forever.
(For the record, I don’t usually get the seasonal flu shot, either, just because I am healthy and have never been seriously ill from the flu. But I might reconsider now that I see the death rates. Yikes.)
I understand how vaccines work. But I don’t agree with using them for illnesses like the flu – even the swine flu, except in certain cases. The flu as an illness isn’t serious enough to warrant a vaccine. It’s better for our bodies to develop its own immunity through exposure to various viruses over time. These are Dr. Gordon’s words (http://drjaygordon.com/development/news/swinefluhighanxiety.asp):
“Every winter there are dozens and dozens of different viruses. The immune system is built by catching and beating these bugs and acquiring antibodies and “memory cells” for the next time the virus appears.
There is no way around this process and no shortcut. Children, in particular, must suffer through a lot of winter illnesses because their immune systems are so inexperienced.”
Regarding death rates from swine flu, I’m not sure you can even get accurate death rates since the way the media is reporting this is leaving out important contextual information. Even the CDC hasn’t done a good job of tracking H1N1. How do we know for sure that someone has died of H1N1 when they say it? In my own town, headlines declared a 13-year-old dead from swine flu and then buried a note in the bottom of the article that said it wasn’t yet confirmed. There has been no follow-up. If it was a confirmed swine flu death, I know there would have been. The sad thing is that teen’s death wouldn’t have been reported at all a year ago. Now, whether it’s swine flu or not, this death is being exploited and causing fear and panic in the community.
Actually, vaccines give unnatural immunity. They enter our bodies in a way no natural disease can, they activate a completely different aspect of the immune system because of their entry route, a part which was never meant to be a primary system. The virus is injected with many chemicals, all of which are toxic to humans. Some of these are preservatives and some are adjuvants (which they don’t work without). The adjuvants hyper stimulate the immune system to respond to the virus in order to create the immune response & anti-bodies. These anti-bodies are clearly different than ones created from actually getting the disease, since vaccine induced immunities aren’t passed through breast milk the way natural immunity is. You might also want to research into serotype replacement.
The number of pregnant women getting this shot worries me, given the insert for this recommends against pregnant women getting it & the WHO now suggests not giving it to kids under 10.
Do you have a link to the information you are citing about WHO not recommending this for kids under 10?
Lisa: I would also be interested in the reference re: WHO recommending not giving it to kids under 10. I had seen an update from the WHO that said that kids probably only need one shot (instead of 2 as initially stated), but I hadn’t seen anything about it not being recommended for kids.
“The experts noted that a variety of pandemic vaccines, including live attenuated and both adjuvanted and non-adjuvanted inactivated vaccines, have now been licensed for use by regulatory authorities. SAGE recommended the use of a single dose of vaccine in adults and adolescents, beginning at the age of 10 years, provided such use is consistent with indications from regulatory authorities.
Data on immunogenicity in children older than 6 months and younger than 10 years are limited and more studies are needed. Where national authorities have made children a priority for early vaccination, SAGE recommended that priority be given to the administration of one dose of vaccine to as many children as possible. SAGE further stressed the need for studies to determine dosage regimens effective in immunocompromised persons.”
So I guess it’s more they don’t know if it works in under 10′s, but if the gov’t wants them to have it anyway, only give 1 dose. It’s from http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/briefing_20091030/en/index.html
My understanding of that release is not that one shot is sufficient for children under 10, but, if there is a shortage of vaccine, give one shot to children so as to give at least partial protection.
@radmama: The latest findings from the WHO is that one shot may be enough for children.
With all due respect, that’s not the way I read the October 30 bulletin. I interpret the text below as saying 1 shot will provide immunity for 10 and up, more study is needed for those under 10, but in the interest of getting limited vaccine to more people, 1 dose should be administered.
“Single dose recommended
The experts noted that a variety of pandemic vaccines, including live attenuated and both adjuvanted and non-adjuvanted inactivated vaccines, have now been licensed for use by regulatory authorities. SAGE recommended the use of a single dose of vaccine in adults and adolescents, beginning at the age of 10 years, provided such use is consistent with indications from regulatory authorities.
Data on immunogenicity in children older than 6 months and younger than 10 years are limited and more studies are needed. Where national authorities have made children a priority for early vaccination, SAGE recommended that priority be given to the administration of one dose of vaccine to as many children as possible.”
FYI – I replied to radmama’s comment and she replied back to mine. However, the comment nesting seems to be at its limit, so they somehow appear at the end of the post after even comments that have been posted more recently.
That depends on the vaccine. Different vaccines work with different parts of the immune system, based on what people who develop those vaccines have determined is the best way to prevent those illnesses.
@toyfoto
I’d like to clarify that Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) is NOT an actual side-effect of flu shots. GBS is an autoimmune disorder triggered by some kind of infectious process. In many cases the precise trigger is unknown. The most common trigger is a bacterial infection. A few studies suggest that influenza might be the trigger in some cases. The 1976 influenza vaccine has been linked to cases of GBS in that year, although flu vaccines since then have not been shown to have a causal relationship. However, all types of flu shots today carry the warning about GBS.
Marianne is right. I’m sorry I was unclear.
the media has done such a poor job of informing people that we immediately become skeptical.
news is always doom and gloom and urgent and filled with fear. even when it’s not necessary.
news outlets have become the boy who cried wolf, we the townspeople who no longer pay attention.
listen up chicken littles… get. the. damn. shot.
Toyfoto– I want to mention that most people I know don’t get the regular flu shot either. It’s not like we’re just picking on the H1N1 vax.
I heard some data on NPR that people who take the regular yearly flu shot are more likely to get H1N1 and the suggested correlation was that your body has not built up immunity and your left wide open when something new comes around.
I know a lot of people who don’t get the regular flu shot, either. I never got one until last year. I really don’t think people are idiots either way. I want to make that clear. I do feel confident it the vaccines overall safety, though, and that’s where I wish to weigh in.
The NPR story, if I heard the same one about findings that people who had received regular flu shots the previous season were more likely (but what percent I don’t recall) to get H1N1), was about an unpublished study that was acted upon in Cananda by the government and, according to the CDC isn’t proving out in the US … or so NPR updated. The report was widely picked up, but as far as I know the study itself has not be published by a peer-reviewed journal.
Regarding the safety of the vaccine, numerous sources point out that the H1N1 vaccine was made in pretty much the same way as the seasonal flu vaccines, which people have been getting for decades. The only difference is the strain of the dead virus in the shot:
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/vaccine_safety_qa.htm
As for calling people who don’t get the shot “idiots”, I wrestled with whether it was better to be polite or blunt in this post. I obviously went with blunt. (As an aside, I use “idiot” advisedly as it’s a term that has been thrown around by vaccine skeptics, like Bill Maher.)
However, when I say I bite my tongue, I’m being honest: calling someone an idiot for not getting the flu shot is something I *wouldn’t* do in person. And I think public health officials are better to try to politely get skeptics on side than to dismiss their concerns.
That said, I think when it comes to serious health issues like this, we can go too far in bending over backwards and saying that everyone’s opinion is valid. Some points of view are scientifically supported and some are not.
But I freely admit that this post is a rant — one that seems to be resonating with others who are pro-vaccine — not a public service announcement.
- Chad Skelton
I LOVE seeing pros and cons, even arguments with solid research behind them.
But the name calling? The hysteria? Parents telling other parents that they’re part of the problem because they’re not vaccinating? It upsets me deeply.
Thank you for responding so well.
buzz: First of all many people don’t even have access to the shot. Second of all, the shot came out so late many people already got the flu. Thirdly, if you got the shot, you’re covered….why bully people into doing something that’s not right for them.
I’m interested in what people think of the reaction Amy Wallace got for her Wired piece?
@Toyfoto: I think it was to be expected.
But justified?
@Toyfoto: I think a piece like that is bound to bring out the extremist on either side. It was not written in a manner that would appeal to middle of the road people. It was written to make strong pro-vax advocates feel that their position is entirely justified and to make strong anti-vax advocates feel attacked. So, yes, I think the reactions were justified.
I don’t feel strongly one way or another about flu vaccine, but I do feel vaccines in general have improved healthcare immensely and still have amazing potential. I think people should decide for themselves the risks, and that studies should always continue. But I don’t think everything should be “middle of the road.” I think it’s true that there are many shades of gray; but there is still right and wrong, too. I think she wrote that piece to make people think … not feel.
phdinparenting, would you mind sharing a little about why you and your kids take vitamin D? I am curious – I take a multi, but no extra Vit D, (besides what I get spending a few hours a day outside and in fortified foods) and I give no supplements to the kids (yet). I am just curious about how you came to your decision, and I am always on the lookout for solid information about keeping healthy.
Great response, By the way!
@Jane:
In normal circumstances we do not give extra Vitamin D supplements. Like you, we meet our Vitamin D requirements through fortified foods, sunlight and multivitamins where required. The normal recommendations for Vitamin D is 200 IU to 400 IU per day for both children and adults (except seniors who may need more). There is some evidence that higher levels than that may be beneficial in fighting any number of different diseases and more research is being done.
Specific to the flu, there have been and are a number of ongoing studies looking at the role that higher levels of Vitamin D can play in warding off the flu. This article on Vitamin D and Homeopathy and the flu references one:
This post on swine flu prevention and treatment references another (albeit from a biased source – the Vitamin D council – so I take it with a grain of salt). Here is an article on an ongoing PHAC study that looks at the role of Vitamin D in protecting against seasonal influenza. Here is some information from the Vitamin D council on how much Vitamin D to take to prevent the H1N1 flu (I know…that biased source again…but I’ve seen similar info elsewhere and just can’t find the links right now).
Ahhh… people who don’t get the shot are idiots. People who DO are “sheeple”. Depending on your decision, you’re either making a decision based on fear-mongering by the media, or fear-mongering by the “fringe”.
What it really comes down to is we’re all trying to make decisions on “might be’s” and predictions. We’ll all have 20/20 hindsight. In the moment, we can only do what seems best for our family.
With 2 people in our family considered “high priority” – me because I’m in third trimester, and my daughter because she’s under 4, we elected to be sheeple rather than idiots
.
(As an aside, from what I’ve read, Guillain-Barr Syndrome can be caused by the flu as well as by the flu shot.)
My other problem with the name calling and anger behind this issue is that we seem to have lost the ability to discuss issues rationally in many arenas. People are calling each other names. There is incorrect information coming out of both camps. I have a hard time trusting someone who says this shot is perfectly safe. I saw a doctor writing about how “COMPLETELY safe” it was. If I felt like most doctors were saying, “It appears to be reasonably safe. I recommend it because I feel like the protection it provides outweighs the risks that exist” I would respect that a lot more. Also, I see quite a bit of misinformation on the anti-vaccination side, too. After seeing the CBS report about the flu being over reported, it appears that the validity of those statistics is being called into question. I am not dumb. I am not an idiot nor am I a sheep. I want facts. I want information. I want trusted opinions and good discussion. I don’t need to be called names or judged because I want to make my own decisions.
Yes. YES. This. I was going to post a comment, but you pretty much said it all right here. Thank you.
(And I really appreciated this entire post, too–thank you!)
–Jenn
p.s. I did a post, with a link to an article in the Atlantic, last week over at http://greenmomintheburbs.wordpress.com/2009/10/20/flu-flu-what-to-do/ on this topic…that’s an article that does seem to give some intelligent scientific critique to the entire flu vaccination program, though it’s certainly not infallible…
Yes, yes, yes!!!! This is my biggest concern – I don’t think all vaccines are bad. I don’t think all vaccines are necessary. I want good info, about both the safety of vaccines and true death and complications rates for a given illness. I feel like one child dying of “suspected” H1N1 has made people completely overreact and act like all our children are going to die if they don’t get the vaccine.
One of my children has been very sick this week. I don’t have a clue if it was H1N1 or the flue or a cold virus (he’s getting better now though!) But I do know we’ve had reported H1N1 in our school and feel it was too late to even attempt to get the vaccine, if I wanted it, which I don’t think I did.
I think that this vaccine is VERY dangerous. They only started teating in September, theres no way that they could know that its safe. Of even more concern, is the administration ofvaccines nasally (through the nose), or accidental passage via that route (98). Fields Virology text
(2001) says, “The olfactory tract has long been recognized as an alternative pathway to the CNS
[central nervous system]…olfactory neurons…are unprotected by the blood brain barrier.” While that
writer particularly addresses the flavivirus family [i.e., “intranasal inoculation of flaviviruses may
result in lethal encephalitis” (99)], this pattern of potential danger may deserve further attention than
it currently receives, especially if there ever is consideration to use a method of nasal inoculation for
mass vaccination of the public or military, and there may be contaminating viruses or toxins in a
vaccine that have an affinity for nerve cells and tissues. They have also added things such as squalene that is not even FDA approved for vaccine use.
I think that people who get this vaccine need to have their heads examined for following the hysteria about the Swine Flu. Geez, first it was SAR’s that was going to kill us all, then it was bird flu, and now its swine flu? What boogie man will they come up with next to send those in this country who have long ago forgotten how to think for them selves into a media induced hysteria?
@S:
Where I live they are not offering the nasal spray. Just offering the jab in the arm.
I am also concerned about the lack of testing, although I understand because of similarities to the seasonal flu vaccine we know more about its safety than we would with a completely new vaccine. But I’m still waiting for better data before I get in the queue.
This might be another thing that’s adding to the confusion, that vaccine components are I think slightly different by country– I have read in many places including the CDC website that there are NO adjuvants in ANY of the US swine flu vaccines, which means no squalene. I can’t say if that’s true for Canada, though.
@Marcy: The Canadian vaccine adjuvanted, although they are making an adjuvant-free version for pregnant women. More info here:
PHAC – Adjuvanted vaccine
Has anyone been able to find information about the safety of the adjuvant used in the Canadian vaccine? It’s called ASO3. Most of the claims of the safety of the H1N1 vaccine say they are based on its similarity to the seasonal flu shot. However the seasonal flu shot does not contain ASO3. From what I can find, the claims of safety of ASO3 are based on studies of the H5N1 (avian) flu shots… the numbers look good, but I can’t find any actual studies to look at, only the WHO’s interpretation… http://www.who.int/vaccine_research/documents/Brief_overview_of_use_of_oil-in-water_emulsions.pdf
Any thoughts?
Marcy,
I’m an American living in Canada and I can tell you with 100% accuracy that you can only get the adjuvanted vaccine here unless you are pregnant. I have two small children and I’m worried SICK about giving them this vaccine here. If I could get it in the U.S., I would get it in a heartbeat.
I have a son who is 21 months old, and we will be getting the swine flu vaccine for him whenever it comes available. We’re pro-vaccine in general– we feel strongly that vaccines are overall a GOOD thing. Yes, there are risks, but I’m willing to take them for the sake of the protection offered. I wonder about the chemicals used in vaccines, but their protection outweighs those worries, and besides it seems to me that there will likely be more harm done to our bodies from the DAILY exposure to chemicals in the air we breathe, the products we use (try to limit this, but it’s tough to do), etc. I understand that not everyone will agree or see it this way.
The tricky thing about vaccines is it’s not a decision that’s isolate to each family alone, but has an impact on the community as a whole. You don’t get a vaccine or not get one in a bubble– the number of people vaccinated in a community will affect the rate and spread of a disease within that community. I was thinking the other day how when we have our second child I might consider using a delayed schedule for vaccinations, except then I think of recent stories of young babies (too young to have been vaccinated themselves) getting exposed to diseases like measles and getting really sick, because of older kids who went unvaccinated, and it makes me worry about putting my child at risk by waiting to vaccinate. I think it is this communal aspect that makes this whole debate that much more heated, b/c it’s not just about what’s right for your family– it affects everyone around you, too.
BTW I guess I don’t know any science behind it one way or another, but I don’t buy the idea that vaccines will somehow break our immune systems or make them “lazy.” It’s not like we’re injecting the antibodies themselves– vaccines cause an immune reaction within our bodies, making our immune system work to build up those immunities but in a way that’s less threatening/damaging to the body. That is why you get a small reaction after a vaccine like the flu shot (fever, etc) b/c your body is building up its resistance to that particular bug.
You’re certainly right about that! A local church nursery was infected with chicken pox because a parent brought her two year old in and left her in the nursery with the babies – not realizing that the VACCINE is live and her daughter was shedding the virus to all the infants in the nursery as well as the two elderly care workers – one of whom was not immune to the disease and ended up getting it. (The nursery moms always tell her if any of the kids get vaccines so she can find a sub – this gal didn’t).
No – no one lives in a bubble.
One of my main concerns about the nasal vaccine is the live virus component and the ability of vaccinated kids to shed the virus onto those around them.
I am the kind of person that follows the science, not the scare. From all the reading and research I’ve done, I feel that the risks from a flu vaccine, or any vaccine for that matter, are incredibly minute, and in a risk/benefit analysis, the risks of the flu are far outweighed by the benefit of not getting the disease.
There has been plenty of sufficient scientific evidence for me to believe that vaccines don’t cause autism, that thimerosal isn’t dangerous, and that vaccines are not toxic. The content of mercury, aluminum, or squalene adjuvants is incredibly low, less than we get in food, or create in our own bodies. Nothing is completely safe, but the safety and efficacy of vaccines have been proven for well over a century.
I’m not going to begrudge an adult from making their own decision about whether or not to vaccinate themselves for the flu or anything else, but I do hope that they’re making that decision based on valid data, especially when it pertains to making choices for children who cannot make these choices for themselves. I won’t call anyone idiots, because there is so much shouting and so much misinformation, fear tactics, and bad reporting that it can honestly be difficult for the average individual to make reasonable sense of it all, and be unaffected by the messages of fear. The vast majority of parents will act in what they believe to be the best interests of their child. If they are going to make a “bad” decision, I would rather subject their source to critique and criticism.
I tend to take the suggestions of Dr. Bob Sears and Dr. Jay Gordon with a lot of grains of salt, as they’re too closely associated with some of the fringe autism/antivax groups that ignore or spin data for their cause.
Again, I am a nerd, and so I follow the science. Being led by the science means changing your mind when new data changes our understanding. Until valid scientific data comes out to show that there are risks associated with vaccines that are greater than the diseases they aim to protect us against, myself and my family will be getting them.
What a fine site! I just found my way here and may stay the better part of my day off looking at your posts and the responses.
I think that this vaccine–and all new vaccines–should be reserved for higher risk groups. I sincerely doubt that the H1N1 vaccine is dangerous or that it will cause large problems. I do think that as we give it to tens of millions of children and adults we’ll see some GBS and other neurological complications. This number will be small but could be even smaller if the risks and benefits of the vaccine are weighed for each child and family.
Best,
Jay
In reply to the squalene that is found naturally in our bodies, that is correct. The problem with the adjuvent containing the squalene booster that is INJECTED, is the problem. The immune system attacks it as it should, but it also attacks the naturally occuring squalene in the body, leaving the nervous system unprotected and vulnerable to diseases. Just wanted to clarify that. You read it contains squalene which is naturally occuring, but what they don’t tell you is what it does when it is injected unnaturally.
No, people who choose to forego the vaccines are not idiots. Just like people who do decide to get it are not all hysterical sheep. I work for a website where the subject of the H1N1 vaccine comes up daily and it always deteriorates into name calling. The thing is, I do believe that two people can read the same literature and have the same discussions with the same people and come to two different conclusions, and they can BOTH be right. It’s a personal choice based on a lot of factors.
Many of my coworkers have already had the H1N1 flu and been very ill. I’ve been exposed numerous times and am still very healthy. Since my kids have no conditions that would make them high risk, I’m assuming we won’t be able to get the vaccine any time soon, if at all, so we’re proceeding with the usual–handwashing, vitamins, exercise, good food and plenty of sleep.
Amen to this @kayris. I’m always shocked at how upset people get about other people’s decisions. If you take the time to weigh the pros and cons and make this very difficult and important decision for you family then you are neither an idiot nor a sheep. You are a parent.
Thanks for the great post Annie.
I follow the science as well and when the EPA says that the amount of mercury that one can come in contact with is .0025 micrograms with out it causing damage and there is 25 micrograms in most vaccine, it makes me wonder. I also tend to wonder how there is BILLIONS made off vaccines yet those doctors that say don’t vaccinate don’t make a penny, while those that do make upwards of $250 per vaccine they administer. The efficacy of vaccines is also questionable at best, looking at recent outbreaks of diseases that there are vaccines out there for there are always more people who have been “properly” vaccinated who get these diseases that those who don’t get the vaccine and get exposed. I can tell you from experience a healthy child or adult can fight of any disease, its the unhealthy ones who eat process prepackaged foods that are unable to fight off diseases. For them if they are stupid enough to not care for their bodies, and eat crappy food, then heck give them the vaccine, it will make them feel better.
Or, um, those with chronic illness that has nothing to do with how well they’ve taken care of their bodies…they too can have problems fighting off illness. You know, like those with auto-immune diseases. I think making health a moral issue is extremely complicated.
Um, those who “properly” take care of their bodies with the right nutrition will never and I repeat NEVER EVER suffer chronic illness.
For some ideas about living healthy till 100 and over read “Healthy at 100″ John Robbins.
And by the way… you will not find info on proper care of your body on television. Well.. maybe only the exercise part of the show called The Biggest Loser. All nutrition advice on TV is WRONG. Fat Free eating? WRONG! Low Carbs? WRONG!
Read Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon. You will never see the world the same way again. And your health will be better for it too. Need proof? Me and my family as well as thousands of other who have been sick and are now enjoying great health by going back to the basics of traditional eating of natural foods. You see we are NOT scientific proof because we are regular people who do things that don’t make big pharma any money. (most scientific research is funded by big corporations to make them money) As a matter of fact, if I told you I became cancer free from eating certain foods, I will probably go to jail… thanks to FDA whose top heads are sleeping around with big pharma. Need proof for that too? Research the job histories of all top heads of FDA officials and big pharma whores.
Thanks for your time.
“Um, those who “properly” take care of their bodies with the right nutrition will never and I repeat NEVER EVER suffer chronic illness.”
Alright, now is time for being blunt:
That is a RIDICULOUSLY ableist thing to say.
Not just ableist. Ridiculously ableist. And ridiculously incorrect, as well.
“Upwards of $250 per vaccine they administer”
Where do you get that number? I paid $24.99 for the preservative free flu vaccine at my local drugstore. In a few hours I am getting the preservative free H1N1 vaccine for free at a government run clinic at my local hospital. Where’s the profit there? I know the government is subsidizing the vaccine, but I can’t imagine that anyone is making anywhere close to that number.
I’ve read from more sources that vaccines in general are not that profitable for doctors OR for pharmaceutical companies. They make far more off of daily dose drugs (like heart meds, anti-depressants, etc) than they do off of an annual vaccine. I often see the profitability argument used to explain the supposed conspiracy to get us all vaccinated, but I’ve never actually seen any evidence to support it.
“I can tell you from experience a healthy child or adult can fight of any disease, its the unhealthy ones who eat process prepackaged foods that are unable to fight off diseases. ”
With all due respect, I think it is exactly those types of statements that hurt much more than help this sort of discussion. YOU may have had an experience of a healthy child fighting through a disease– this does NOT make it true for all people who fight it. Many very healthy people have died from the flu, and worse.
I too paid $30 for the flu shot (probably much less once my health insurance kicks in).
And I also take offense to your comment. Can you tell that to my daughter who has a genetic condition that has nothing to do with “prepackaged food”? Since every time she gets the normal flu, she ends up in the hospital a week. I’d be an idiot not to vaccinate the kid. If you disagree, feel free to join me at the Children’s Hospital the next time she gets sick. I don’t mind the company.
I think this was a really balanced respond, PhD. We’re generally a pro-vaccine family, but each person has individual risk factors when it comes to illness, and this is something we’ve discussed at length with our doctors. Because there is some (albeit limited, I believe, b/c it’s very new) evidence to suggest that children of mother’s with an autoimmune disease in particular, and of a family history with autoimmune disease in general, are more at risk for complications from vaccines, our pediatrician recommended that we do our son’s vaccines very gradually to give his immune system time to develop. My husband has 2 autoimmune diseases, as does my sister. If our whole family was totally healthy, we wouldn’t have delayed vaccines. But because of this family history, our pediatrician felt that our son getting the H1N1 vaccine could reasonably be worse for him than him getting the actual virus.
My husband and I both plan to get the vaccine for ourselves as soon as it becomes available for us. Autoimmune diseases (when someone is genetically predisposed) can be triggered by a serious illness. My husband got his second one after a nasty bout with pneumonia. I’d really rather he not get a 3rd disease, end up in the hospital with complications from what he already has, or die. And, as I discuss on my blog, my illness also puts me at high risk. So, for us, the benefit outweighs the risks.
I follow research very closely, analyze each study I read. At the end of the day though, each family, each person is different, and we have to live with the decisions we make. I feel like we are neither idiots for deciding to not vaccinate our son, nor sheeple for vaccinating ourselves.
Around here there is only limited H1N1 vaccine and the general populous is very worked up and scared. I read a local general Mom’s board and they are all really upset. They compare who is more high risk and who should get it, who has a doc office that has it etc…… If you want it, sure, get it— but it is the wacky helplessness that thease people feel that is sad. I’m not saying that they want it for wacky reasons but FEAR of getting H1N1 is making thease people become super worry warts. I wish some news would help people learn what they CAN do to prevent and/or care for their family if they do get it. Stress does weaken your immune system!
(This is directed at everyone- not specifically you, Annie!)
Our family doctor is against it. I was already against it as I am for all vaccines. I learned the hard way by having a child with adverse reactions to vaccines. Sometimes that’s what it takes for the people calling ME an idiot to WAKE UP. I understand it doesn’t happen to everyone but it happened to me.
There is no guarantee that any of those shots will protect. They haven’t been studied enough and are filled with toxins that will further break down the body’s immune system. And cause who knows what else- either immediately or in the future.
This week my son is 5 years seizure free. I’d be an idiot to give him a vaccine and could not live with myself if he started seizing again because of it. I moderate an international webgroup for my son’s condition and I am SO HEARTBROKEN by how many parents continue to join our group after their previously healthy child’s “immunizations” caused unexplained and uncontrollable seizures.
None of us have all the answers but I think most of us just want to do what we know is best for our child. If I don’t make the same choice you do for your child that doesn’t mean either person is wrong or right. Be willing to live and face up to whatever decision you make regarding the vaccine, and understand that those of us against it aren’t idiots but are actually making the best decision for their family.
Steph
Steph
First, let me say I am so sorry for what happened with your son. I cannot imagine what it must be like to go through that, and I certainly understand why you’ve decided not to vaccinate him again seeing his previous reaction.
At the same time, there are children who are dying from swine flu– apparently 19 new children died from it just last week (http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20091030/child-h1n1-swine-flu-deaths-rising). A friend was just telling me of a normal, healthy kid in our area who got swine flu and then just stopped breathing one night. Both stories are heartbreaking–and neither can be ignored or brushed aside.
Which is EXACTLY why every parent has to weigh the risks and benefits for THEMSELVES and make the best decision for THEIR family and THEIR unique situation. That’s part of parenting – these choices are NEVER one-size fits all.
((Hugs Steph))
Angela <
I’m 20 weeks pregnant and got the vaccine. Here’s a link to my post about why: http://farmersdaughterct.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/im-vaccinated/
i guess calling people idiots is intended to be as inflammatory as twittering out unconfirmed reports of vaccines killing people in Scandinavia
neither of you have a degree in or a deep understanding of immunology though both are parents
pot, meet kettle and try not to be too righteous about it all
@ebbandflo They were reports on deaths that are linked to the vaccine. There are also plenty of headlines claiming that people died from swine flu just because they happened to have swine flu and also happened to die. Most of them have some underlying condition and many of them could very well have died with or without the swine flu.
A comment that I read somewhere that made a lot of sense and that I tweeted about was this:
- When someone with an underlying condition and swine flu dies, they died of swine flu
- When someone with an underlying condition who got the H1N1 vaccine dies, they died of their underlying condition
Oh and don’t worry too much about the kettle and I…we both enjoy a good bun fight (this is not the first time we’ve had one) and it certainly gets people thinking and talking, which is all I would ask.
Great post! I happen to be in the non-vaxing camp, and I’ve been able to have mostly respectful conversations with the people I know who are going to get the vaccine. I understand the POV of people who are getting the vaccine. We all need to remember that it’s an extremely difficult decision either way and I think that’s why emotions run so high. I know very few (if any) parents of children who are at least 6 months who are planning not to vaccinate. In my circle of friends, I’m the minority.
They all have their reasons and I’ve had my own concerns dismissed in a few cases as being without merit, which I don’t appreciate but I’ll get over it. The point you make about questioning the vaccine’s safety is VITAL and that’s my biggest problem with many people I’ve talked to about this – they are accepting the “party line” without question! Regardless of the conclusion you come to, I think it’s GOOD to question these things, particularly in this media-manufactured panicky environment we’re in. And don’t dismiss the concerns of others just because a source you have says it’s wrong. I’ve personally been researching many, many sources and trying to get accurate answers – a difficult task in this particular situation with so many nutbars out there shouting out conspiracy theories.
I’m sure my friends think I’m an idiot for not getting myself, my husband and my son (19mos) vaccinated – even more so since my son was allegedly exposed on Monday of this week. For me, the unknown risks are something I can’t live with and it bothers me more than I can say that the vaccine makers are being granted immunity from liability in case something happens. I just hope and pray for everyone who IS being vaccinated that this vaccine not only works but has no serious side effects.
Thanks for the links to Dr. Gordon and Dr. Sears. I am very interested in what they have to say.
Although I think the vaccine is a personal decision, I think that the decision over whether to get it or not must take into consideration the fact that if you get the virus you could pass it onto people who aren’t strong enough to fight the virus. The choice over whether or not to get vaccinated is not just about myself – it’s about my family, and the safety of others.
This is an argument I hear a lot, and I respect it.
If my children are sick, whether they are vaccinated or not I do not send them to school or take them out of the house.
From what I have read the flu and swine flu have obvious signs at the outset, and therefore my children would not be exposing other people unintentionally.
Actually most likely when they are contagious, they aren’t showing any signs from what I’ve been told.
I also wondered about the safety of this new vaccine — not because of an inherent distrust of the medical establishment and not because I buy into any conspiracy theories, but because it is new and there was a lot of rhetoric being thrown around.
Here is my detailed response to questions that many people have: http://playgroundconfidential.com/2009/10/30/5000-reasons-and-counting-to-get-your-h1n1-vaccine/
I have become convinced that this vaccine is safe (much safer than the H1N1 flu, that’s for sure) and I think we should all get it. Having said that, there is no need for full scale panic and waiting in crowded lines for hours on end with two small children? Yeah, that’s not going to happen. So I will wait until more clinics in Toronto open and conditions are a lot more tolerable (or see if I can get it at the doctor’s office).
I definitely wonder about the safety of mass flu shot clinics… I have no interest in being in close quarters for hours with hundreds of people who could potentially already be carrying the flu virus or any other virus. Isn’t limiting time in crowds one of the basic principles of infection control?
Just to clarify, I am seriously considering getting the vaccine for my child and I (she’s almost a year old and I will soon be returning to work in paediatric health care), but do not intend to get the shot via a crowded clinic – I am, however, fortunate enough to have access to the vaccine via my doctor’s office.
Same, we’re leaning towards yes here too but don’t feel we need to rush to a crowded clinic and then wait for hours and hours to get it, possibly being turned away, or picking something up in the process. We are also fortunate that our family doctor will be offering it (for our 5 and under kids, at least) very soon, soon enough for us (unless of course they run out?!) If there were other factors, perhaps we would have braved the lines last week.
I really found this whole thread very interesting and helpful!
Wow, a post about a vaccine that doesn’t resort to any name calling! This is truly impressive. We’re also pretty middle of the road on these issues, and we also find that finding the tiny grain of truth among all the scare tactics on both sides of the vaccine debate is very difficult.
As any woman in early pregnancy would be, I’m pretty worried about h1n1, but also not eager to be a guinea pig for an untested (in pregnant women) vaccine. If I do get it, it will probably be in a few months after there is some data available on it. But probably my husband and son will get it, to protect themselves and reduce my exposure to the disease.
ugggh! I’m so SICK of being called a “conspiracy theorist” and “idiot” because I don’t want to get my 3.5 year old vaccinated with this. I don’t make fun of people for GETTING their family vaccinated – and I’m appalled at the lack of mutual respect in return. I have finally just decided not to TELL anyone – and if they ask I’m telling them it’s a personal decision and I don’t want to talk about it…
While the rotavirus vaccine was pulled from the market in 1999, a vaccine approved by the FDA in 2006 (RotaTeq) and also another vaccine (Rotarix) do not cause intussusception and have been incredibly successful. With this vaccine, children no longer need to suffer from a rotavirus.
The more people that are vaccinated, the more safe everyone is because of herd immunity.
Please read:
http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20081027/rotavirus-vaccine-a-success-story?page=2
The H1N1 vaccine is prepared in the same way the seasonal flu vaccine was. If it had hit a few months earlier, it would have just been made part of the seasonal flu vaccine. Please read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/opinion/12offit.html
There are good data suggesting that keeping your vitamin D level optimal will prevent colds, flu and in particular H1N1 (swine Flu). The Canadians are taking the data very seriously and starting studies to see if Vitamin D can prevent Flu
Here are links to two interesting articles:
August 2009-Vitamin D3 deficiency and its role in influenza
http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs026/1102452079631/archive/1102685428884.html
Sept 2009-More on Vitamin D3 and influenza
http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs026/1102452079631/archive/1102728693089.html
If these links don’t work you can go to http://www.vitaminD3world.com and click on ‘In the news” to find the articles.
I was very on the fence about getting either vaccine for myself (pregnant) and my 15 month old. On the one hand, she isn’t in daycare and has limited exposure to other kids in close quarters, plus we do lots of hand-washing, etc around here. Also, at her last ped appointment, neither vaccine was available (seasonal shot ran out, H1N1 not released yet).
On the other hand, my friend had the swine flu and the symptoms she described sound way worse than a regular flu, and it is swaying me in the direction of getting the vaccine for myself, and for my daughter.
In any case, the argument is moot at this point in time, since neither is available to us at this moment in time.
I recently posted this note at David Gorski’s site. It’s a website filled with some fine scientists but, unfortunately, some of the rudest bloggers on the Internet.
_________________________________________________________________________
Congratulations on your huge increase in views and viewers, David!!!!!
I do love Craig’s wording when he calls you “anti-safe vaccine.”
I like to use the same wording when I discuss a woman’s right to choose: I am pro-choice and those who disagree with me are anti-choice.
By the way, I do not think that my experience is more important than published studies. I am, however, very certain that discarding this experience and observation is unscientific.
I am afraid that Craig’s got a point: You and many here seem quite vociferously opposed to even thinking about making our vaccines safer. Instead you insist on carelessly labeling those of us who think there’s a little room for improvement (let alone a lot of room!) “anti-vaccine” Nothing could be further from the truth and you persist in using this inaccurate epithet where it doesn’t apply.
There are people opposed to all vaccines. I’m not one of them and many of those offering their opinions here are neither in favor of all vaccines nor opposed to them.
Maybe there are three camps: pro-safer vaccines, anti-safer vaccines and anti-vaccines.
Again, here’s to the next 5,000,000 views. For better or worse, you deserve them.
Best,
Jay
I am a mother of two and we do not vaccinate. We are not firmly anti-vaccine, but have made our decision based on our own family’s personal risk-benefit analysis and for us, that precludes vaccines at this time.
I have been watching the H1N1 panic, for lack of a better word, from overseas in Australia, where we just got through winter with both H1N1 and seasonal flu circulating and NO H1N1 vaccine–it just reached the public at the end of September (spring). As of October 26/09, there were a total of 186 confirmed H1N1 deaths in a country of almost 22 million people.
My family reside in Canada. I pulled up the product insert for Arepanrix:
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/prodpharma/legislation/interimorders-arretesurgence/prodinfo-vaccin-eng.php
“Health Canada has authorized the sale of Arepanrix™ H1N1 based on limited clinical testing in humans under the provision of an Interim Order (IO) issued on October 13, 2009…There is currently limited clinical experience with Arepanrix™ H1N1, and limited clinical experience with an investigational formulation of another AS03-adjuvanted vaccine containing the same or a slightly higher amount of antigen derived from A/California/7/2009 (H1N1) (see section Pharmacodynamics) in healthy adults aged 18-60 years and no clinical experience yet in the elderly, in children or in adolescents…There is very limited experience with AS03-adjuvanted H5N1 vaccine in children between 3 and 9 years of age, and no experience in children less than 3 years of age or in children and adolescents between 10 and 17 years of age…No data have been generated in pregnant women with Arepanrix™ H1N1 nor with the prototype AS03 adjuvanted H5N1 vaccine.”
Now to me, “limited experience,” “no experience,” and “no data” does not sound like rigorous testing.
I have been reading the media reports of middle aged adults/seniors in Sweden who died within hours or days of their Pandemrix vaccinations. One was a man in his 50s with severe heart disease who died within 12 hours of his vaccination. (I have the link to the Swedish newspaper article…if anyone wants it and can read Swedish, ask and I’ll post it).
So, then I came across this:
Possible hidden hazards of mass vaccination against new influenza A/H1N1: have the cardiovascular risks been adequately weighed?
Sucharit Bhakdi et al Medical Microbiology and Immunology
Vol.198, No.4, November 2009 pages 205-209
http://www.springerlink.com/content/26r335851h17584g/?p=1c07b2f1a9a446b2819ce0a915ca1f40&pi=0
“Evidence from animal experiments in conjunction with clinical epidemiological data indicates that, quite irrespective of cause, stimulation of the immune system may accelerate atherogenesis. Application of adjuvanted flu vaccines to individuals at risk may therefore aggravate the course of underlying atherosclerotic vessel disease with all the clinical consequences…Safety trials conducted to date have not specifically taken these possible side effects into account, and unexpected serious adverse effects thus may follow in the wake of a general vaccination program. A prudent consequence would be to establish careful survey systems alongside with mass application of new adjuvanted vaccines, or to hold mass vaccination in reserve for use only in situations of true need, such as would arise with the emergence of a more virulent new H1N1 virus strain, or to use non-adjuvanted vaccines in individuals who are potentially at risk for adverse side effects.”
And then there’s Dr. Chris Shaw’s recently published research on the effects of aluminum hydroxide (a vaccine adjuvant) and the brain:
Aluminum hydroxide injections lead to motor deficits and motor neuron degeneration
Dr. Christopher A. Shaw
Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry
Volume 103, Issue 11, November 2009, Pages 1555-1562
The Eighth Keele Meeting on Aluminium
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TGG-4X1YCBB-1&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=fb173cc4103b412cac4a1581544825cc
“… In an initial series of experiments, we examined the potential toxicity of aluminum hydroxide in male, outbred CD-1 mice injected subcutaneously in two equivalent-to-human doses. After sacrifice, spinal cord and motor cortex samples were examined by immunohistochemistry. Aluminum-treated mice showed significantly increased apoptosis of motor neurons and increases in reactive astrocytes and microglial proliferation within the spinal cord and cortex. Morin stain detected the presence of aluminum in the cytoplasm of motor neurons with some neurons also testing positive for the presence of hyper-phosphorylated tau protein, a pathological hallmark of various neurological diseases, including Alzheimer’s disease and frontotemporal dementia. A second series of experiments was conducted on mice injected with six doses of aluminum hydroxide. Behavioural analyses in these mice revealed significant impairments in a number of motor functions as well as diminished spatial memory capacity. The demonstrated neurotoxicity of aluminum hydroxide and its relative ubiquity as an adjuvant suggest that greater scrutiny by the scientific community is warranted.”
Although I am skeptical of many aspects of the current vaccine program in general, I think that there are too many unanswered questions about the safety and efficacy of these H1N1 vaccines. Plus the media-influenced anxiety is fuelling a rush towards quick vaccination despite some of these warning signs (like the papers I posted above). In the city where my family lives, many low-risk people waited for 6 hours to receive a H1N1 vaccine, even though they aren’t even at high risk of complications (according to government health authorities). People need to calm down and rationally look at all the information…more is emerging daily.
And simply calling people “idiots” for choosing to make their own rational, researched, science-based decisions for themselves and their families…well, that doesn’t show a lot of maturity or intelligence…whatever “side” you’re on.
Great post! My own Pediatrician and OB recommended the H1N1 vaccine. Our pediatrician is not for the flu shot at all but this is the first year he thinks it is necessary. I am pregnant and have a very weak immune system while pregnant. So I did go get it after much thought and research. I did not get it for my kids. 2 of my girls already had the flu. The other 2 did not. My girls are generally healthy. I do believe it is a personal opinion and we shouldn’t criticize others for whatever path they choose. We don’t know what’s going to happen. We are playing Russian Roulette. You don’t know if the shot is going to do something to you and you don’t know if the flu is. You have to choose what YOU can live with.
I am another one who is not anti-vaccine, but I delay-vaccinated my daughter, because I feel that the AAP’s guidelines are too much too soon. I believe that such a tiny body with a developing brain should not be given up to six shots at one time. She did receive the seasonal flu mist and is supposed to get a 2nd does, but since there is no more available in the area – I don’t understand how she would get it? Which brings up another subject whether they are protected or not with just one does or need two (under 10) – if they REALLY do need another – why doesn’t the Dr put the 2nd shot/mist aside for the child? As for the H1N1, I am another on the fence – I think if the shot/mist was more easily accessible (there are clinics in my area, w/ either long lines or they run out of shots in less than an hour -US), I just might get the mist or shot for her – only if it is a single does, not multi. In the meantime, we are nursing, taking about 2000 IU VItamin D and probiotics.
Until yesterday, I had firmly decided that my 9 month old daughter and I were not going to get the vaccine. I didn’t feel it had been tested enough in the demographics that they’re trying to force it on. Also, because I’m on maternity leave still, we’re at home alot. We don’t spend alot of time out of the house, and when we do it’s usually at one of the grandparent’s houses. In that respect I think our exposure to H1N1 is somewhat limited.
But yesterday I learned that the vaccines are the exact same as a seasonal flu shot, just with a different strain of flu in it. (Obviously I don’t follow every last bit of news on this issue.) That being the case, what are we scared of? What will more rigorous testing prove? And what results are we expecting to see when the adverse reaction reports start coming in? Technically, wouldn’t the adverse reactions be the same as with seasonal flu shots? The only thing I could see being called into question, is how much of the live strain is there – is it too little to kickstart out antibodies, is it too much and causing full blown H1N1 illness?
Not that it matters much at the moment – the mass vaccination in my province has been halted because they’re running out of vaccines. The pharm company is apparently spending the next 3 weeks focusing on the non-adjuvant version for pregnant women and can’t supply the normal vaccine. Which is all fine and dandy, but alot of people can get sick in 3 weeks, making the vaccine useless to them, and resulting in needing less of the vaccine for the rest of the province. Oh wait, maybe that’s their goal…?
We are on the fence in our home too – although also leaning towards getting it. The clinic is later this week — and while I am happy we’re not the first to get it, I feel like I want to wait a while to see what ‘might come up’ and to get more data on if in fact the WHO’s current recommendation of only one dose being enough will stay or be changed to 2.
I’m incredibly tired of what the media has done with this … and I feel that we’re being ‘forced’ (although not actually forced) by fear… which is crazy. If in fact this vaccination is so important — why must it create such chaos and why oh why can they not figure out a way to do this by appointment? (i understand it’s cause they don’t have enough, but still) I have absolutely no desire to be in a room for hours on end with potentially sick people when we work hard at trying to limit our exposure these days…
The more reading I do, the more frustrated I get — This is a part of parenting I really would rather not have to deal with!
Great discussion – nice to see divergent views discussing instead of name calling. For us, we’ve decided to delay getting the vaccine for now – I’m currently of the mind that we won’t get it, but am continuing to follow it carefully.
For me, after lots of research, the risk of getting severely ill with H1N1 is outweighed by concerns about rare side effects that aren’t clear from the limited testing and the long-term consequences of not obtaining natural immunity to the virus. Would it be different if we had a small infant, I was pregnant, we had a cancer sufferer in the family? Very probably yes.
We are taking steps to maintain health (as we do every fall, really) – Vitamin D & C, probiotics, lots of fresh veg and garlic, proper sleep and focus on hygiene, hygiene, hygiene… (which includes not standing in line for 6 hours in crowded places with strangers). I got a neat email from DD’s school that I’ve posted to my blog – doudoubebe.blogspot.com
The title of this article is a joke right? MD’s, immunologists, pathologists, scientists, researchers, ph’d's, professors, and many other’s are NOT getting this particular vaccine because it is an absolute fact that vaccine’s have known safety and efficacy issues. One also absolutely must realize that the percentage of those suffering serious consequences for h1n1 is well under 1%.
Based on this article’s title we should also be asking if people are idiots for going to bed tonight without putting on a crash helmet, shoulder pads, knee pads, jockstrap, and also seat belting themselves into bed are idiots. That isn’t even a fair analogy … because the protection of vaccines have a storied history of causing collateral damage. The first 2 receiving the cowpox vaccine died at 20 and 21 years old from TB. The history of protect in one area and cause problems (perhaps years, decades later) in another area has never changed for vaccines. It will require researching beyond the soundbites that the industry mouthpieces are promoting however.
@borealis4: Did you read the post or only the title? The title was in reference to the post that I was commenting on in this article.
I hadn’t read it fully. I became a participant to that which I rail against. -This issue becomes an emotional one all too quickly which of course doesn’t work. Thanks. I believe the most informed way to vaccinate is by looking at each vaccine individually and then weighing all the data. Sounds like you have a more cautious approach as well. The issue is a complex one and it fascinates me largely because the only way to make an informed decision requires looking into it much more deeply than relying on the mouthpieces / ‘respected authorities’ infomercials. Very quickly when one rolls up their sleeves they find that the CDC has no shortage of data which makes current vaccine policy a lot less straight forward.
“If humanity is to pass safely through its present crisis on earth, it will be because a majority of individuals are now doing their own thinking.” — Buckminster Fuller
Deep breath….
We are all getting vaccinated today. I’m not comfortable with the decision, especially since the Canadian government still hasn’t released any of its promised weekly reports on adverse reactions. That said, the number of people with the flu keeps increasing here, including people close to us.
The vaccine clinic in our area is today and tomorrow and then who knows when. No further dates planned. In a nearby location, there are more planned for December, but they are just a few days before we leave on vacation and I don’t want to either (a) get a vaccine a day or two before leaving the country or (b) get sick while on vacation in a country where I’m not sure we’ll get the health care that we need.
So, we get the vaccine today or we don’t get it until January.
Sigh.
Good luck!
It’s hard to make a decision when you don’t know the full risk/benefit profile. I do know a few families who have gone for it and have experienced muscle aches. One teenager had full fledged flu symptoms after the vaccine. Hundreds of children have now been vaccinated in NS and I have heard nothing on more severe reactions than that.
Sigh. Good luck, Annie! We’re getting the shot too… I have a meeting at work today and will be returning to work in a week and a half. I heard yesterday that there is an outbreak at my workplace (I work in health care), so I decided that if I’m likely to be exposed to the virus regularly, I may as well protect myself and my family, as well as the clients I work with (many are medically fragile children). Like you, Annie, I’m not totally comfortable with it, but have decided that based on the current information the potential benefits of the vaccination outweigh the potential risks, for me and my family anyway. So, I’ll get the shot at work today (they’re running clinics for staff), and my little one will get her’s next week at her doctor. We’re hoping my husband will also get it, but clinics here are sticking to the priority groups, and he’s not in any of the groups.
Having a child that falls into the priority category plus has underlying an underlying medical condition, for us, it’s a no brainer to get it. However, here in the states its hard to get your hands on it. I refuse to stand in line for 6 hours with my kids. My pediatrician still doesn’t have the regular flu shot either, so I am thinking they may never even get the h1n1 shot ever.
For anyone who has or has had H1N1 (either confirmed or suspected), I’m conducting a survey and would love your help by filling it out. It only takes a couple minutes. Please fill out a new survey for each person who had the illness. Thank you!
H1N1 Survey: http://bit.ly/1Q5QA
I’m by no means pushing the shot, but for anyone who is still sitting on the fence re: getting the H1N1 shot, I’d recommend checking out this really easy to read presentation about the risks vs. benefits. Quite possibly the simplest, most matter of fact info on H1N1 and the vaccine I’ve found… and I’ve done a lot of searching.
http://www.stmichaelshospital.com/h1n1/H1N1-decision-aid.pdf
Okay, was that decision aid supposed to be unbiased? Why does it say at the end, “Will you vaccinate yourself and your kids? Yes.” That was nice that it makes the decision for you. Hmmm…
It says, “In a perfect world we would have large trials over years to reassure you (and me) that the vaccine is perfectly safe. However, if we waited for this, millions of people would get very sick. The H1N1 vaccine is like a new version of the flu shot that we have lots of experience with and an excellent safety record. As well, there is now enhanced reporting systems in North America to gather this data and there have been no concerning signals. The adjuvant is new to this influenza shot and has been less tested on pregnant moms and children under 6 months so we are cautious with these two groups. Ultimately you and I have to make a decision without all the data we would like.”
Maybe that is fine with others. Yet, the scientists who published the studies I cited above would disagree that it is completely “safe.” There are some issues with this vaccine that deserve further attention. And there is no long term safety data. There isn’t even much efficacy data with this particular vaccine being rolled out right now, just a similar product they used during the trials.
If people want to get vaccinated, that is their business and they’re free to do so. But I take exception to any concerns being downplayed. If scientists are questioning it, that’s a red flag for me. If I have valid concerns for myself and my family with the safety and efficacy of this product, they should not be downplayed by a decision aid that tells me at the end that I should just get vaccinated and that I should do it for others too (no thanks, they can get their own vaccine if they’d like).
My friends in Canada all just recovered uneventfully from H1N1…that includes a 5 year old and 3 year old. Not to say that it is not serious for some people. But it also not remarkable for many as well.
I agree that the presentation was still biased. I liked the presentation, up to the last slide, because it provided a simple and clear discussion of the main issues/concerns. I feel that it answers a lot of questions for those who are questioning things on a more basic level – most people I’ve spoken to are afraid they’ll die or have serious complications if they get H1N1 – the presentation cites evidence that says H1N1 is pretty mild and though it’s unpleasant, they will cope (I too know many people who have recovered uneventfully from H1N1 – most people do). Others are afraid of the possibility of serious complications from the vaccine – the presentation indicates that the data we have now suggests that serious complications will be rare. I provided the link to share information, not to downplay anyone’s concerns. I too have concerns about vaccinations, particularly the long term effects of vacinations in general, especially the cumulative effect of all the new vaccines being pushed. And I don’t think anyone should accept anything without questioning. Unfortunately, a lot of the scientific information is not accessible to everyone, so a simplified decision aid may help (though I really wish that last slide wasn’t in there).
I also resent the “protect other people by getting vaccinated” argument, but unfortunately in my case it is a reality – I work with children, many of whom are medically fragile and cannot get their own vaccine. In my case, I do feel a responsiblity to get the vaccine to protect the kids I work with from getting an illness that they may not be able to cope with.
Just as an aside, ultimately, I think the government pushing the vaccine is an attempt at cost savings – it’s cheaper to vaccinate hundreds of thousands of people than it is to hospitalize those who do end up with serious complications… especially when those hospitals are likely to be short staffed due to the same illness.
Yes, I agree with you that is it is a good starting point to look at some of the issues. Unfortunately, many people are not as well read and thorough as you appear to be and for many folks, a slide show presentation is as much investigation as they will do. I have met some mothers who have brought their kids in for vaccinations but have no idea what they were given or why.
And the protection of others argument might sit better with me if it hadn’t been overused by health officials before with vaccines that do not tend to provide “herd immunity” ie. adult pertussis boosters to supposedly protect children, yet I can cite published studies showing the failure of the pertussis vaccine to prevent infection or transmission in fully vaxed on schedule children. Maybe if there were studies on the Arepanrix to back up their claims…but again, they say there’s no time to provide this. Vaccinate first, worry about efficacy and long term safety later.
Good point about the cost savings. It’s the same with the Hep B shot…the logic for many jurisdictions being that it is cheaper to administer the vaccine to newborns than to test all the mothers. Also, the government had a contract with GSK to produce all these millions of doses, so it’s been bought and paid for by tax dollars already. The government needs to get it out there or else it’s going to be sitting around and won’t the opposition love to flog that around the House if they find out millions of $$ were wasted and doses were not used…it’s a business deal as well after all.
I read the last question as being asked of the speaker, and his/her answer for their own family, not a presumed question/answer on behalf of the reader.
PHAC has amended its FAQs on vaccine safety (linked at the bottom of the post). Until last Friday it included a sentence that said: “PHAC will be preparing a weekly report on Fightflu.ca that provides a summary of the adverse events reported nationwide”. That sentence (and some related information that I did not copy verbatim anywhere) has now been removed. So much for transparency.
An anaylst suggested on Halifax CBC radio yesterday that some mechanism for tracking reactions to the vaccine, even minor ones, would be good for future research. No such luck.. My 13yo with asthma was vaccinated this week. He had a very, very sore and swollen arm, low fever, cough and fatigue. Others have reported vomiting. I’m surprised there isn’t interest in gathering this sort of information…
Here is a summary report put out by the Australian government on H1N1 here:
http://www.healthemergency.gov.au/internet/healthemergency/publishing.nsf/Content/ozflu2009.htm/$File/ozflu-no26-2009.pdf
It’s interesting reading. Note in the chart on page 3 (Figure 1) that reported cases were almost back to baseline before the vaccine was introduced.
Also, the stats on page 9 show that for Australia, it did not cause significant mortality in young people. Yes, the age of infection was low, but the average age of mortality was 54 years.
The Government of Canada finally released its report on adverse reactions to the H1N1 vaccine. Out of 6.6 million doses distributed (not sure how many administered of those), there were 634 adverse effects, 36 serious adverse effects, and one fatal case of anaphylaxis.
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/alert-alerte/h1n1/vacc/addeve-eng.php
I would not call anyone an idiot, but I would call them ignorant. As I was reading some posts on here, so many feel that the flu is not actually dangerous. I have had the flu once in my life, and at the time my resistance was down, it knocked me out for over a week. Obviously, I did not die, I was a healthy adult at the time, however, very VERY ILL. Flu kills healthy people as well, and the swine flu is killing healthy children AND adults. I did not hesitate for a moment to get the H1N1 vaccine for my child and I also received it ( as I now have a chronic medical condition). I really hope that those who choose not to vaccinate do not regret it later on.
One more thing, I had NO side effects from the H1N1 vaccine and neither did my 12 yr old daughter. Absolutely NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you claim you had fever, or flu like symptoms after receiving the vaccine, most likely you had already been exposed to an illness (virus) and your symptoms had nothing to do with the actual vaccine. Vaccines actually take a full 2 weeks to give you immunity.
To Courtney above, sorry your child has autism, but it has already been proven that autism has nothing to do with immunizations. Please read up on latest findings, there is a genetic link to that
Also, it is your choice not to give your child the gardisal vaccine ( which has already been proven to be safe) but I chose it for my 12 yr old because even though I will teach her about safe sex, all the preaching in the world will not protect her from the evils of the world, as I most certainly learned over 20 years ago when I was sexually assaulted and picked up the deadly HPV virus because of that horrible night. How thrilled I am to know my baby can be protected from that.
Susan: I’m glad that everything worked out for you. Aren’t you glad that we live in a society where people have freedom of choice? You can choose what’s right for your family. Others can choose otherwise.
Health Canada is posting adverse reactions, so I guess you can take that up with them. Most neurological reactions would be based on the adjuvants not the virus, so they wouldn’t be based on seroconversion rates of the vaccine.
Gardasil is a whole other subject. Based on the clinical trial results and the FUTURES II study, I would never allow my daughter to get it. Sure, it’s effective against those strains covered, but other HPV strains then fill the void, so net gain is negligible. But I guess they can keep adding more and more strains to the vaccine…
H1N1 is a scam, its a scam designed to scare American people into getting a vaccine, because if they do that, the Big Pharma industry makes some serious bank, think about it $25 x how many people, looks like people in Big Pharma got some nice christmas gifts for their kids……..if you get it, you’re nothing more than a piece of a paycheck for those people……and listen, the only time i ever get the flu is when i get the flu shot……….interesting huh? I say, don’t get the flu shot, but if you wanna listen to people who are trying to make money off of you, go for it.
I will NOT be getting H1N1 vaccines because in every multi dose shot is 25mcg of thimersoal mercury. FAR to much chemical for my child, End of discussion. When I was pregnant 5 doctors told me NOT to eat fish because it contains to much mercury these days and can possibly damage the baby. If it’s to much just in some occasional fish, then it darn well to much in a vaccine as well! But they are coercing pregnant women every where to get this thing? NOWAY! The nasal spray does not have mercury but it makes you contagious.
to all those people asking “What are we scared of?” well exactly what is happening in Australia surrounding our flu shots….one child is dead and many many more have been hospitalised from the combined h1n1 and seasonal flu vaccine. How? They don’t know….to me that is evidence that testing is not to a high standard. But anyway I can’t help but be smug (of course feeling immense sympathy for the parents of children that did had side effects) as I had recently had a argument with a close friend as to why I don’t want to get my son vacc (And just cos it is free…doesn’t win an argument for me).
http://www.news.com.au/national/flu-jab-fears-grow-as-toddlers-rushed-to-hospital/story-e6frfkw0-1225857716233
Love this: “I do not understand his reference to “natural parents” not wanting to put chemicals in their food but allowing their kids to get the virus. Our personal beliefs are that illnesses are natural and an important part of evolution. Now our bodies are more up to date with the viruses of the world we are better off, imo. To me that is natural. Putting a manmade vax into our bodies because we are afraid does not feel safe to me.”
Obviously this is kind of an old issue by now but I especially wanted to point out how right you were about not knowing how real the threat was. For all of the HUGE panic, it didn’t end up being worse than a regular flu and only the people I know who get some form of the flu EVERY YEAR ended up sick. That guy’s argument was TOTALLY laughable.
Excellent post, it opend my eyes, thanks!
@radmama: Sorry – I’m getting my sources/stories confused. It was tests by the vaccine manufacturer, GlaxoSmithKline that showed that one dose is probably enough for children:
http://www.nationalpost.com/life/health/story.html?id=0aa82851-0de3-409c-971a-cf6967a36f2b
Still looks like a might, but I’m hoping more conclusive data will be available by the time i need to make my decision on Nov 16. In-Canada trials are going on now, including at the Halifax children’s hospital, and I have heard preliminary results will be available in another week or two.