Friday
Oct302009
Are people who don't get the H1N1 vaccine idiots?
Friday, October 30, 2009
Today I read a post by@curiousdad on his blog over at the Vancouver Sun. He wrote H1N1 flu vaccine: What the skeptics aren't telling you. In his post he outlines a case for getting the vaccine and especially for getting your kids vaccinated. His post starts out with:
He goes on to explain a number of reasons for getting the vaccine, to express dismay at the natural parenting community who try to avoid dangerous chemicals in their food and personal use products, but that would be willing to let their children be exposed to H1N1. He ends with his strong disapproval of parents who refused to get their kids vaccinated:
Sounds straight forward right? Perhaps, if you are only listening to certain sources.
My quick response to him turned out to be quite lengthy. It is not as well articulated perhaps as I usually like my posts to be, but since I went to the trouble of writing it I thought I would share it here too:
I am on the fence, but leaning towards getting the H1N1 vaccine for my kids and for myself. However, I think it is smart to:
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but being called an idiot won't bully me into not questioning things.
As the H1N1 vaccine starts to become available across the country, it seems like everywhere I turn there's someone telling me they're not going to get it -- whether it's friends on Facebook, people on the street or even a columnist in my own paper.
When this happens, I try to be polite and not say anything. After all, everyone has the right to make their own decision about whether to get the vaccine or not. And, if polls are to be believed, those forgoing the vaccine have plenty of company.
But what I really want to say -- what would come out of my mouth if I didn't always bite my tongue quick enough -- is this: Are you an idiot?
The evidence in favour of the flu vaccine (much as with routine childhood vaccinations) is so overwhelming and clear that getting the vaccine -- and making sure your children get it -- seems about as clear and straightforward as buckling up before you go for a drive.
He goes on to explain a number of reasons for getting the vaccine, to express dismay at the natural parenting community who try to avoid dangerous chemicals in their food and personal use products, but that would be willing to let their children be exposed to H1N1. He ends with his strong disapproval of parents who refused to get their kids vaccinated:
It's one thing to decide not to get the vaccine yourself. But with evidence mounting that kids are particularly vulnerable to this flu strain, not getting them vaccinated, in my view, borders on negligence -- no different than failing to buckle them up in the car or put a safety gate across your stairs.
Sounds straight forward right? Perhaps, if you are only listening to certain sources.
My reply
My quick response to him turned out to be quite lengthy. It is not as well articulated perhaps as I usually like my posts to be, but since I went to the trouble of writing it I thought I would share it here too:
There are some very well respected doctors and pediatricians that are questioning the safety of the vaccine and the degree of panic around H1N1, including Dr. Jay Gordon and Dr. Bob Sears. Do their opinions count less than your average family doctor in Canada who is pushing the vaccine? Unlike my doctor who shows up at work, does what the Canadian Pediatric Society tells her to do, and maybe does a bit of continuing education here and there, Dr. Gordon and Dr. Sears and others actively analyze and research these issues.
I'm still on the fence about whether to get the vaccine or not. Also, it isn't available yet in my area. Not for priority groups, not for the general population. From that perspective we have both (a) the risk of getting H1N1 because we don't have access to the vaccine and (b) the opportunity to watch and see a bit with regards to any adverse reactions to the vaccine in the areas that have been first to receive the vaccine. The PHAC has promised weekly reports on adverse reactions to the vaccine on fightflu.ca and I am checking each day to see if the first one has been released.
In the meantime, we are taking precautions to try to limit our chances of getting H1N1 and spreading it to others. If we are sick, we stay home. We wash our hands frequently, cough into our sleeves, etc. We are taking significant amounts of Vitamin D. I am taking 5000 IU myself and giving between 1000 IU and 2000 IU per day to the kids. Personally, I feel like taking these types of precautions is likely to be better protection from H1N1 than being put in a crammed enclosed space for 7 hours with a bunch of potentially infected people waiting to get the vaccine. I hope that by the time the vaccine is available in my area they will be taking appointments by phone (like they are in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario) so that people are not exposed to those ridiculous conditions (because the vaccine isn't immediately effective after getting it, so you can get sick waiting in that stupid line).
Finally, there are vaccines out there that have been approved and later removed from the market when it was discovered that they were causing serious adverse effects that went undetected in testing. That is in vaccines that were thoroughly tested, unlike the H1N1 vaccine which has not been properly tested on children, pregnant women, etc. Don't believe me? Look up rota virus, which in the United States annually sickens about 2.7 million children younger than five, sends up to 70,000 to the hospital and causes 20 to 70 deaths. One vaccine was pulled from the market in 1999 and another one later introduced has significant concerns/adverse effects. My son was hospitalized for rota virus. It sucked. It was scary. But I'm glad he didn't have the vaccine.
I am on the fence, but leaning towards getting the H1N1 vaccine for my kids and for myself. However, I think it is smart to:
- ask questions about vaccine safety
- to insist on seeing the weekly reports on adverse affects that the Canadian government promised but that have not materialized yet (especially in the absence of real safety tests )
- to do more to protect yourself than getting into a panicked frenzy about vaccine availability
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but being called an idiot won't bully me into not questioning things.
Reader Comments (126)
Nicely thought out response.
Thanks! This is what I have been trying to articulate to some friends and family for a while but haven't been able to say.
We are recovering from the flu as we speak. Yes, it has been a rough week, but we are getting through it.
I do not understand his reference to "natural parents" not wanting to put chemicals in their food but allowing their kids to get the virus. Our personal beliefs are that illnesses are natural and an important part of evolution. Now our bodies are more up to date with the viruses of the world we are better off, imo. To me that is natural. Putting a manmade vax into our bodies because we are afraid does not feel safe to me.
A loophole in our philosophy is when an illness is a result of a manmade ignorance, such as factory farming animals. I wish half the energy of the media frenzy could be spent on restructuring global food systems so that industrial farming was no longer a breeding place for dangerous illnesses.
There seem to be two camps as with almost all issues these days. Vaxing parents cannot fathom how someone could choose to not vax and non-vaxing families can't believe people are willing to vax. No need to throw insults. Just choose for your family and let people be.
I wouldn't call some one an idiot for making a choice based entirely on their gut, though I don't think it's entirely smart, either.
I think the fear we all have about our lives and lack of control we have over most of it can persuade us in many different directions.
Dr. Sears - on his web site anyway - doesn't seem to question the safety of H1N1
He writes: "How are these vaccines manufactured?
Here is the interesting part. Everyone has been worrying and theorizing about how these BRAND NEW vaccines are going to be made and what new and dangerous ingredients they might contain. Well, what has ended up happening is that these four companies have made their “swine” flu vaccines using the exact same process and ingredients that they’ve used for their regular flu vaccines. All they’ve changed is the strain of the flu germs that go into the vaccine. Not to say that these vaccines are completely chemical free and 100% safe. But we aren’t dealing with brand new flu vaccines here. We are dealing with the same thing we face with flu shots every year: same chemical ingredients, new flu vaccine strains. You can find out more details on how regular flu shots are made in the flu chapter of the vaccine book, and apply that same process to the “swine” flu vaccines.
* Sanofi Pasteur’s pandemic H1N1 vaccine is analogous to their regular flu vaccine Fluzone, a brand that has been in use for several years.
* CSL’s pandemic H1N1 vaccine is analogous to their regular flu vaccine Afluria, a newer player in the flu vaccine market that was first made last year for the 2008/2009 flu season.
* Novartis’s pandemic H1N1 vaccine is analogous to their regular flu vaccine Fluvirin, which has been around for a few years (previously made by Chiron).
* MedImmune’s live nasal spray pandemic H1N1 vaccine is analogous to their regular nasal spray Flumist.
The thing is, at the moment, whether you want this vaccine or not could be a mute point. Getting it may be the tricky part.
@toyfoto:
I'm not planning to make a decision based on my gut. I'm trying to weigh the evidence as best as I can and am pissed off that the government is doing such a fabulous job of telling us how many people are being hospitalized or dying from causes related to H1N1, but not yet releasing any info on the adverse effects.
With regards to Dr. Sears, some of the places where he questions the safety (I don't say that he says it is unsafe, but he does not say unequivocally that they are safe):
For me the issue is that many people just don't research and pick up some view or other and then just think they have all the wisdom of this world. Personally, I'm inclined toward the vaccination, because I've seen the flu (not of the swine type) kill a healthy young person in just a few hours. I'm terrified of flu now, and I know that this is what influences my view in this respect. And I also know that I may be mistaken, that there are risks to be balanced, the risk associated with flu and the risk associated with a vaccination. What gets to me is the propaganda style discourse around the vaccination. Just give me fact, I don't need preaching (and your post is in the first category obviously).
Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) is a potential (and rare) side effect of all flu shots.
The only thing that changes on these shots is the virus they are injecting. They are made the same way. Flu viruses mutate, that's why their effectiveness changes over time and they are always making new ones.
I think they recommend them to pregnant women because the manufacturing ingredients (aside from the virus component) is the same and has been proven effective and safe over time.
There are no 100 safe anythings. Humans of all ages are more likely die in a car crash than from the flu or even have a serious adverse reaction to the shot. I agree that we are polluting our environment, we are endangering sustainability in so many ways. I just think some of the medical progress made - such as vaccines - have done more to add to the length and quality of our lives ... maybe so much so that we take them for granted.
the media has done such a poor job of informing people that we immediately become skeptical.
news is always doom and gloom and urgent and filled with fear. even when it's not necessary.
news outlets have become the boy who cried wolf, we the townspeople who no longer pay attention.
listen up chicken littles... get. the. damn. shot.
Toyfoto-- I want to mention that most people I know don't get the regular flu shot either. It's not like we're just picking on the H1N1 vax.
I heard some data on NPR that people who take the regular yearly flu shot are more likely to get H1N1 and the suggested correlation was that your body has not built up immunity and your left wide open when something new comes around.
I know a lot of people who don't get the regular flu shot, either. I never got one until last year. I really don't think people are idiots either way. I want to make that clear. I do feel confident it the vaccines overall safety, though, and that's where I wish to weigh in.
The NPR story, if I heard the same one about findings that people who had received regular flu shots the previous season were more likely (but what percent I don't recall) to get H1N1), was about an unpublished study that was acted upon in Cananda by the government and, according to the CDC isn't proving out in the US ... or so NPR updated. The report was widely picked up, but as far as I know the study itself has not be published by a peer-reviewed journal.
Regarding the safety of the vaccine, numerous sources point out that the H1N1 vaccine was made in pretty much the same way as the seasonal flu vaccines, which people have been getting for decades. The only difference is the strain of the dead virus in the shot:
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/vaccine_safety_qa.htm
As for calling people who don't get the shot "idiots", I wrestled with whether it was better to be polite or blunt in this post. I obviously went with blunt. (As an aside, I use "idiot" advisedly as it's a term that has been thrown around by vaccine skeptics, like Bill Maher.)
However, when I say I bite my tongue, I'm being honest: calling someone an idiot for not getting the flu shot is something I *wouldn't* do in person. And I think public health officials are better to try to politely get skeptics on side than to dismiss their concerns.
That said, I think when it comes to serious health issues like this, we can go too far in bending over backwards and saying that everyone's opinion is valid. Some points of view are scientifically supported and some are not.
But I freely admit that this post is a rant -- one that seems to be resonating with others who are pro-vaccine -- not a public service announcement.
- Chad Skelton
@Hillary:
I agree that the people in the extreme camps on either side are perhaps the most argumentative and judgmental of others decisions. However, I sit somewhere in the middle and have still gotten plenty of venom (mostly from the pro-vax side, but a bit from the anti-vax side too). My children have received all of the recommended childhood vaccinations plus Hep A and Hep B due to risks in countries we travel to.
But...all of those vaccines have gone through extensive testing and we have a good awareness of the risks and side effects. Not perfect, but pretty good. If my daughter was in the age bracket for the Gardasil vaccine, I would probably not be jumping on the bandwagon for her to get that one. I don't think the case is strong enough that it is needed or that we know enough to say that the risks are sufficiently low. I feel the same way about this H1N1 vaccine.
@toyfoto:
We have never felt the need to get the seasonal flu vaccine. Even though the risks may be small, they seemed unnecessary. Healthy people don't usually die from the seasonal flu and I think being sick every once in a while is normal and just part of life.
I have also heard that people who got the seasonal flu vaccine last year are at a greater risk of contracting H1N1 this year, so I'm glad we didn't get it. I also wonder what will happen next year. This year swine flu...who knows what will come around next year and will the people who got the swine flu vaccine this year be more susceptible to that? To me this sounds similar to the issue with antibiotics - overuse can make them less effective over time. If we keep vaccinating and vaccinating and vaccinating for everything that we possibly can, will our overall resistance be reduced over time and will the things we are exposed to get stronger and stronger over time?
I LOVE seeing pros and cons, even arguments with solid research behind them.
But the name calling? The hysteria? Parents telling other parents that they're part of the problem because they're not vaccinating? It upsets me deeply.
Thank you for responding so well.
buzz: First of all many people don't even have access to the shot. Second of all, the shot came out so late many people already got the flu. Thirdly, if you got the shot, you're covered....why bully people into doing something that's not right for them.
I'm interested in what people think of the reaction Amy Wallace got for her Wired piece?
phdinparenting, would you mind sharing a little about why you and your kids take vitamin D? I am curious - I take a multi, but no extra Vit D, (besides what I get spending a few hours a day outside and in fortified foods) and I give no supplements to the kids (yet). I am just curious about how you came to your decision, and I am always on the lookout for solid information about keeping healthy.
Great response, By the way! :)
Ahhh... people who don't get the shot are idiots. People who DO are "sheeple". Depending on your decision, you're either making a decision based on fear-mongering by the media, or fear-mongering by the "fringe".
What it really comes down to is we're all trying to make decisions on "might be's" and predictions. We'll all have 20/20 hindsight. In the moment, we can only do what seems best for our family.
With 2 people in our family considered "high priority" - me because I'm in third trimester, and my daughter because she's under 4, we elected to be sheeple rather than idiots ;).
(As an aside, from what I've read, Guillain-Barr Syndrome can be caused by the flu as well as by the flu shot.)
I feel your sentiments and I have similar concerns.
My other problem with the name calling and anger behind this issue is that we seem to have lost the ability to discuss issues rationally in many arenas. People are calling each other names. There is incorrect information coming out of both camps. I have a hard time trusting someone who says this shot is perfectly safe. I saw a doctor writing about how "COMPLETELY safe" it was. If I felt like most doctors were saying, "It appears to be reasonably safe. I recommend it because I feel like the protection it provides outweighs the risks that exist" I would respect that a lot more. Also, I see quite a bit of misinformation on the anti-vaccination side, too. After seeing the CBS report about the flu being over reported, it appears that the validity of those statistics is being called into question. I am not dumb. I am not an idiot nor am I a sheep. I want facts. I want information. I want trusted opinions and good discussion. I don't need to be called names or judged because I want to make my own decisions.
I think that this vaccine is VERY dangerous. They only started teating in September, theres no way that they could know that its safe. Of even more concern, is the administration ofvaccines nasally (through the nose), or accidental passage via that route (98). Fields Virology text
(2001) says, “The olfactory tract has long been recognized as an alternative pathway to the CNS
[central nervous system]…olfactory neurons…are unprotected by the blood brain barrier.” While that
writer particularly addresses the flavivirus family [i.e., “intranasal inoculation of flaviviruses may
result in lethal encephalitis” (99)], this pattern of potential danger may deserve further attention than
it currently receives, especially if there ever is consideration to use a method of nasal inoculation for
mass vaccination of the public or military, and there may be contaminating viruses or toxins in a
vaccine that have an affinity for nerve cells and tissues. They have also added things such as squalene that is not even FDA approved for vaccine use.
I think that people who get this vaccine need to have their heads examined for following the hysteria about the Swine Flu. Geez, first it was SAR's that was going to kill us all, then it was bird flu, and now its swine flu? What boogie man will they come up with next to send those in this country who have long ago forgotten how to think for them selves into a media induced hysteria?
@S:
Where I live they are not offering the nasal spray. Just offering the jab in the arm.
I am also concerned about the lack of testing, although I understand because of similarities to the seasonal flu vaccine we know more about its safety than we would with a completely new vaccine. But I'm still waiting for better data before I get in the queue.
@Toyfoto: I think it was to be expected.
My head hurts. The swine flu shot isn't available in our area yet. My 2yo has already had her first dose of the seasonal flu and is scheduled to have her second on Monday. At this point my options seem to be: 1. Get her the second seasonal flu shot and skip the swine flu. 2. Get her the second shot and the swine flu for the total of four shots. 3. Skip the second seasonal and opt for the swine flu for a total of three shots.
What a mess. We'd never gotten a flu shot before this year and I let the Pedi talk me into it.
I have a son who is 21 months old, and we will be getting the swine flu vaccine for him whenever it comes available. We're pro-vaccine in general-- we feel strongly that vaccines are overall a GOOD thing. Yes, there are risks, but I'm willing to take them for the sake of the protection offered. I wonder about the chemicals used in vaccines, but their protection outweighs those worries, and besides it seems to me that there will likely be more harm done to our bodies from the DAILY exposure to chemicals in the air we breathe, the products we use (try to limit this, but it's tough to do), etc. I understand that not everyone will agree or see it this way.
The tricky thing about vaccines is it's not a decision that's isolate to each family alone, but has an impact on the community as a whole. You don't get a vaccine or not get one in a bubble-- the number of people vaccinated in a community will affect the rate and spread of a disease within that community. I was thinking the other day how when we have our second child I might consider using a delayed schedule for vaccinations, except then I think of recent stories of young babies (too young to have been vaccinated themselves) getting exposed to diseases like measles and getting really sick, because of older kids who went unvaccinated, and it makes me worry about putting my child at risk by waiting to vaccinate. I think it is this communal aspect that makes this whole debate that much more heated, b/c it's not just about what's right for your family-- it affects everyone around you, too.
BTW I guess I don't know any science behind it one way or another, but I don't buy the idea that vaccines will somehow break our immune systems or make them "lazy." It's not like we're injecting the antibodies themselves-- vaccines cause an immune reaction within our bodies, making our immune system work to build up those immunities but in a way that's less threatening/damaging to the body. That is why you get a small reaction after a vaccine like the flu shot (fever, etc) b/c your body is building up its resistance to that particular bug.
I am the kind of person that follows the science, not the scare. From all the reading and research I've done, I feel that the risks from a flu vaccine, or any vaccine for that matter, are incredibly minute, and in a risk/benefit analysis, the risks of the flu are far outweighed by the benefit of not getting the disease.
There has been plenty of sufficient scientific evidence for me to believe that vaccines don't cause autism, that thimerosal isn't dangerous, and that vaccines are not toxic. The content of mercury, aluminum, or squalene adjuvants is incredibly low, less than we get in food, or create in our own bodies. Nothing is completely safe, but the safety and efficacy of vaccines have been proven for well over a century.
I'm not going to begrudge an adult from making their own decision about whether or not to vaccinate themselves for the flu or anything else, but I do hope that they're making that decision based on valid data, especially when it pertains to making choices for children who cannot make these choices for themselves. I won't call anyone idiots, because there is so much shouting and so much misinformation, fear tactics, and bad reporting that it can honestly be difficult for the average individual to make reasonable sense of it all, and be unaffected by the messages of fear. The vast majority of parents will act in what they believe to be the best interests of their child. If they are going to make a "bad" decision, I would rather subject their source to critique and criticism.
I tend to take the suggestions of Dr. Bob Sears and Dr. Jay Gordon with a lot of grains of salt, as they're too closely associated with some of the fringe autism/antivax groups that ignore or spin data for their cause.
Again, I am a nerd, and so I follow the science. Being led by the science means changing your mind when new data changes our understanding. Until valid scientific data comes out to show that there are risks associated with vaccines that are greater than the diseases they aim to protect us against, myself and my family will be getting them.
This might be another thing that's adding to the confusion, that vaccine components are I think slightly different by country-- I have read in many places including the CDC website that there are NO adjuvants in ANY of the US swine flu vaccines, which means no squalene. I can't say if that's true for Canada, though.
No, people who choose to forego the vaccines are not idiots. Just like people who do decide to get it are not all hysterical sheep. I work for a website where the subject of the H1N1 vaccine comes up daily and it always deteriorates into name calling. The thing is, I do believe that two people can read the same literature and have the same discussions with the same people and come to two different conclusions, and they can BOTH be right. It's a personal choice based on a lot of factors.
Many of my coworkers have already had the H1N1 flu and been very ill. I've been exposed numerous times and am still very healthy. Since my kids have no conditions that would make them high risk, I'm assuming we won't be able to get the vaccine any time soon, if at all, so we're proceeding with the usual--handwashing, vitamins, exercise, good food and plenty of sleep.
@Marcy: The Canadian vaccine adjuvanted, although they are making an adjuvant-free version for pregnant women. More info here:
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/alert-alerte/h1n1/faq_rg_h1n1-eng.php#av" rel="nofollow">PHAC - Adjuvanted vaccine
@Sarah: They are not recommending the seasonal flu shot here for anyone under 65 years old.
But justified?
I follow the science as well and when the EPA says that the amount of mercury that one can come in contact with is .0025 micrograms with out it causing damage and there is 25 micrograms in most vaccine, it makes me wonder. I also tend to wonder how there is BILLIONS made off vaccines yet those doctors that say don't vaccinate don't make a penny, while those that do make upwards of $250 per vaccine they administer. The efficacy of vaccines is also questionable at best, looking at recent outbreaks of diseases that there are vaccines out there for there are always more people who have been "properly" vaccinated who get these diseases that those who don't get the vaccine and get exposed. I can tell you from experience a healthy child or adult can fight of any disease, its the unhealthy ones who eat process prepackaged foods that are unable to fight off diseases. For them if they are stupid enough to not care for their bodies, and eat crappy food, then heck give them the vaccine, it will make them feel better.
If it's worth anything, our pediatrician recommended we stick to the 1 seasonal flu shot for our son, and not do the 2nd dose. She said it should be sufficient; he's almost 9 months old.
Can you cite where you read that those who got the seasonal flu vaccine last year are at greater risk for H1N1. I'm curious. That assertion doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I'm wondering how that would work.
Or, um, those with chronic illness that has nothing to do with how well they've taken care of their bodies...they too can have problems fighting off illness. You know, like those with auto-immune diseases. I think making health a moral issue is extremely complicated.
I think this was a really balanced respond, PhD. We're generally a pro-vaccine family, but each person has individual risk factors when it comes to illness, and this is something we've discussed at length with our doctors. Because there is some (albeit limited, I believe, b/c it's very new) evidence to suggest that children of mother's with an autoimmune disease in particular, and of a family history with autoimmune disease in general, are more at risk for complications from vaccines, our pediatrician recommended that we do our son's vaccines very gradually to give his immune system time to develop. My husband has 2 autoimmune diseases, as does my sister. If our whole family was totally healthy, we wouldn't have delayed vaccines. But because of this family history, our pediatrician felt that our son getting the H1N1 vaccine could reasonably be worse for him than him getting the actual virus.
My husband and I both plan to get the vaccine for ourselves as soon as it becomes available for us. Autoimmune diseases (when someone is genetically predisposed) can be triggered by a serious illness. My husband got his second one after a nasty bout with pneumonia. I'd really rather he not get a 3rd disease, end up in the hospital with complications from what he already has, or die. And, as I discuss on my blog, my illness also puts me at high risk. So, for us, the benefit outweighs the risks.
I follow research very closely, analyze each study I read. At the end of the day though, each family, each person is different, and we have to live with the decisions we make. I feel like we are neither idiots for deciding to not vaccinate our son, nor sheeple for vaccinating ourselves. :-)
@Toyfoto: I think a piece like that is bound to bring out the extremist on either side. It was not written in a manner that would appeal to middle of the road people. It was written to make strong pro-vax advocates feel that their position is entirely justified and to make strong anti-vax advocates feel attacked. So, yes, I think the reactions were justified.
"Upwards of $250 per vaccine they administer"
Where do you get that number? I paid $24.99 for the preservative free flu vaccine at my local drugstore. In a few hours I am getting the preservative free H1N1 vaccine for free at a government run clinic at my local hospital. Where's the profit there? I know the government is subsidizing the vaccine, but I can't imagine that anyone is making anywhere close to that number.
I've read from more sources that vaccines in general are not that profitable for doctors OR for pharmaceutical companies. They make far more off of daily dose drugs (like heart meds, anti-depressants, etc) than they do off of an annual vaccine. I often see the profitability argument used to explain the supposed conspiracy to get us all vaccinated, but I've never actually seen any evidence to support it.
Around here there is only limited H1N1 vaccine and the general populous is very worked up and scared. I read a local general Mom's board and they are all really upset. They compare who is more high risk and who should get it, who has a doc office that has it etc...... If you want it, sure, get it--- but it is the wacky helplessness that thease people feel that is sad. I'm not saying that they want it for wacky reasons but FEAR of getting H1N1 is making thease people become super worry warts. I wish some news would help people learn what they CAN do to prevent and/or care for their family if they do get it. Stress does weaken your immune system!
(This is directed at everyone- not specifically you, Annie!)
Our family doctor is against it. I was already against it as I am for all vaccines. I learned the hard way by having a child with adverse reactions to vaccines. Sometimes that's what it takes for the people calling ME an idiot to WAKE UP. I understand it doesn't happen to everyone but it happened to me.
There is no guarantee that any of those shots will protect. They haven't been studied enough and are filled with toxins that will further break down the body's immune system. And cause who knows what else- either immediately or in the future.
This week my son is 5 years seizure free. I'd be an idiot to give him a vaccine and could not live with myself if he started seizing again because of it. I moderate an international webgroup for my son's condition and I am SO HEARTBROKEN by how many parents continue to join our group after their previously healthy child's "immunizations" caused unexplained and uncontrollable seizures.
None of us have all the answers but I think most of us just want to do what we know is best for our child. If I don't make the same choice you do for your child that doesn't mean either person is wrong or right. Be willing to live and face up to whatever decision you make regarding the vaccine, and understand that those of us against it aren't idiots but are actually making the best decision for their family.
Steph
Steph
I don't feel strongly one way or another about flu vaccine, but I do feel vaccines in general have improved healthcare immensely and still have amazing potential. I think people should decide for themselves the risks, and that studies should always continue. But I don't think everything should be "middle of the road." I think it's true that there are many shades of gray; but there is still right and wrong, too. I think she wrote that piece to make people think ... not feel.
"I can tell you from experience a healthy child or adult can fight of any disease, its the unhealthy ones who eat process prepackaged foods that are unable to fight off diseases. "
With all due respect, I think it is exactly those types of statements that hurt much more than help this sort of discussion. YOU may have had an experience of a healthy child fighting through a disease-- this does NOT make it true for all people who fight it. Many very healthy people have died from the flu, and worse.
First, let me say I am so sorry for what happened with your son. I cannot imagine what it must be like to go through that, and I certainly understand why you've decided not to vaccinate him again seeing his previous reaction.
At the same time, there are children who are dying from swine flu-- apparently 19 new children died from it just last week (http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20091030/child-h1n1-swine-flu-deaths-rising). A friend was just telling me of a normal, healthy kid in our area who got swine flu and then just stopped breathing one night. Both stories are heartbreaking--and neither can be ignored or brushed aside.
Yes. YES. This. I was going to post a comment, but you pretty much said it all right here. Thank you.
(And I really appreciated this entire post, too--thank you!)
--Jenn
p.s. I did a post, with a link to an article in the Atlantic, last week over at http://greenmomintheburbs.wordpress.com/2009/10/20/flu-flu-what-to-do/ on this topic...that's an article that does seem to give some intelligent scientific critique to the entire flu vaccination program, though it's certainly not infallible...
I'm 20 weeks pregnant and got the vaccine. Here's a link to my post about why: http://farmersdaughterct.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/im-vaccinated/
What a fine site! I just found my way here and may stay the better part of my day off looking at your posts and the responses.
I think that this vaccine--and all new vaccines--should be reserved for higher risk groups. I sincerely doubt that the H1N1 vaccine is dangerous or that it will cause large problems. I do think that as we give it to tens of millions of children and adults we'll see some GBS and other neurological complications. This number will be small but could be even smaller if the risks and benefits of the vaccine are weighed for each child and family.
Best,
Jay
i guess calling people idiots is intended to be as inflammatory as twittering out unconfirmed reports of vaccines killing people in Scandinavia
neither of you have a degree in or a deep understanding of immunology though both are parents
pot, meet kettle and try not to be too righteous about it all
Great post! I happen to be in the non-vaxing camp, and I've been able to have mostly respectful conversations with the people I know who are going to get the vaccine. I understand the POV of people who are getting the vaccine. We all need to remember that it's an extremely difficult decision either way and I think that's why emotions run so high. I know very few (if any) parents of children who are at least 6 months who are planning not to vaccinate. In my circle of friends, I'm the minority.
They all have their reasons and I've had my own concerns dismissed in a few cases as being without merit, which I don't appreciate but I'll get over it. The point you make about questioning the vaccine's safety is VITAL and that's my biggest problem with many people I've talked to about this - they are accepting the "party line" without question! Regardless of the conclusion you come to, I think it's GOOD to question these things, particularly in this media-manufactured panicky environment we're in. And don't dismiss the concerns of others just because a source you have says it's wrong. I've personally been researching many, many sources and trying to get accurate answers - a difficult task in this particular situation with so many nutbars out there shouting out conspiracy theories.
I'm sure my friends think I'm an idiot for not getting myself, my husband and my son (19mos) vaccinated - even more so since my son was allegedly exposed on Monday of this week. For me, the unknown risks are something I can't live with and it bothers me more than I can say that the vaccine makers are being granted immunity from liability in case something happens. I just hope and pray for everyone who IS being vaccinated that this vaccine not only works but has no serious side effects.
Thanks for the links to Dr. Gordon and Dr. Sears. I am very interested in what they have to say.
Although I think the vaccine is a personal decision, I think that the decision over whether to get it or not must take into consideration the fact that if you get the virus you could pass it onto people who aren't strong enough to fight the virus. The choice over whether or not to get vaccinated is not just about myself - it's about my family, and the safety of others.
You've just expressed exactly why I am not in favor of getting the H1N1 vaccine. They are saying anyone born before 1957 has some immunity to this strain. Well, will everyone born after 2009 (and those who got the vaccine) not have immunity in 20 or 30 years when another flu strikes?
Medical progress has done a lot for our society and our overall health, but I feel like this is an area that is a lot more uncharted. The immune system is so complex and we may know generally how it works, but I think there is still plenty we don't know. I personally know a number of people who swear by ColdFX despite the fact that I've watched them get a serious illness every couple of years that knocks them down for a week or more. I don't take any of that stuff or flu vaccines and I've never missed an entire week of work - my theory is my immune system is stronger because I let it do its job without artificially "helping" it.