Wednesday
Jan192011
Outrage: When parents cross the line
Wednesday, January 19, 2011 
Where's the line?
The imaginary line. The line between "do what is best for your family" and "that is cruel, abusive, neglectful." Where is it? Do you have one in your head? That dividing line between "not my cup of tea" and "wrong, wrong, wrong"?
I do. Sometimes. It shifts and moves a bit, but it is there. However, my line is not necessarily the same as your line and this is what I'm struggling with right now. I believe there is value in discussing what works and what doesn't work, what is beneficial and what is detrimental, what is valuable and what is useless. When we do that, however, it is almost always accompanied by cries of "don't judge me."
I believe that leaving a baby to cry it out is cruel, that spanking is wrong, and that circumcision should be abolished. Over the past week or so, I've heard people who have chosen those practices (by choice or in desperation) speak out against Chinese mothers who berate their children and force them to study and practice for hours on end. I've heard them chastise mothers who have a five year old's eyebrows waxed against her will for a beauty pageant. I've heard them express outrage at water torture techniques used on toddlers in polygamist communities. Why did they speak out against those things? Because they are better mothers? Because they have limits or standards too? Because the practices are abusive? I don't know.
I think water torture is on par with cry it out. I think spanking is on par with forced practice while being threatened. I think cutting off a piece of a child's penis is on par with waxing a child's eyebrows. So yes, I am outraged by these things that everyone else is outraged by, but I must admit to being confused about why it is okay to critique some parenting techniques, but not others (yes, I get told how wrong and judgmental I am every time I critique something). The only conclusion I can come to is that some of these are mainstream acceptable cruelties in the Western world and the others are outlandish things that only those strange Chinese, polygamists, or human show pony families do. Personally, just because something is widely done and accepted, doesn't make it acceptable to me.
There are extreme and less extreme versions of any of these parenting practices, for sure (e.g. graduated extinction cry it out versus let the baby cry until she vomits and beyond, make-up and a sexy outfit on a toddler versus forced eyebrow waxing and toddler lingerie). But I think that if it is acceptable to express outrage, then we need to realize that none of us is perfect and that not everyone's imaginary line is in the same place. We need to allow the dialogue and expression of opinion on both the things we are outraged by and the things that we may be doing in our own homes. We also need to keep that dialogue respectful, regardless of whether we are criticizing our neighbour, a fellow blogger, or some anonymous woman on YouTube.
Image credit: Subharnab on flickr
Reader Comments (103)
This is perfect, Karen!
One time, I told my blog readers that I make choices that I feel are superior for my family. People sent me so much hate mail that my inbox actually shut down, but it didn't make sense to me. It's like they didn't read the next part, the part where I said OF COURSE I DO. My kid deserves the best I can give her. I deserve to rest peacefully at the end of every day, knowing I've done my best. If I didn't think it was the best way to parent, I'd change. And in fact, when I find out new information, sometimes I do change the way I parent.
But at the same time, I trust that other parents do the same thing. They take all they know about the world, about their families, about their children, and they make the decisions that they feel are superior. Maybe not the best choices for me, but the best choices for them. Let's all make the choices we feel are superior for our families - that seems fair to me.
I thought you were getting all religious on me Jake. :D
I think this is a great post, I don’t parent like my neighbor and she is horrified, she doesn’t parent like me and I think “hum, interesting, I don’t think that would work for us.”
I'm not sure if I'm posing a question. I think I was just making an observation.
Snort
I think there is always value in conversation. And yes, we all have different lines. Mostly because we all have different experiences, values and beliefs. I think everyone has a right to join the conversation wherever they are at, so long as they do it in a respectful way. I think the person who is okay with (for example.. not like I am talking about myself or anything, wink) letting their over 5 or 6 month old baby cry so long as they seem to be releasing tension and don't sound distressed, but doesn't agree with leaving a 4 week old baby to cry unless they, I don't know, need a 10 minute break before they go crazy or need to run to stop their other child from burning down the house or something.... they have as much right to express their disagreement with, I don't know, waxing of eyebrows or something, as anyone else does. (sorry about that ridiculous run on sentence).
My issue is often that I feel that we express our opinions without really considering the range of experiences and the range of diversity in our children. And we use our experiences to define the line. We think our experiences are all that is out there. We believe we are 100% right and so we don't really listen to each other. So at least being open to hearing others thoughts and considering their perspectives is important to me. Stop, breath, listen, strive to understand... that is my goal. I don't always succeed, but I try.
But, no matter what, these conversations are always going to get heated. Because anyone willing to engage in these conversations probably cares a heck of a lot about being the best parent they can be. So there are always going to be cry's of "don't judge me" or "how could you do that"... I think the goal is try and pull the conversation back to a place of sharing ideas and trying to build understanding.
Perhaps we also express our opinions without knowing the full circumstances. We are all outraged by the eyebrow waxing. But what if that child's dream really is to be a beauty queen or a model and she has begged her mother to let her be in the pageants and told her mother how much she wants to have beautiful eyebrows like that other child. But then, in the heat of the moment, she freaks out when it comes time to have the waxing done. The same way that a child who wants to go to swimming lessons might be nervous about going in the pool or a child who wants to go to summer camp may still cling to mom when saying goodbye or the same way that a child who wants to be a concert violinist may get sick of practicing sometimes. If parents push their kids through those moments in order to allow them to achieve their own goals, then who are we to judge?
Sure, it looks horrifying to me from the outside, but so do many, many, many other things that many, many, many other people do. So I just find it odd that people feel it is okay to judge in these scenarios (eyebrows, Chinese mothers, toddler water torture), when they beg not to be judged in other perhaps similar scenarios.
All that to say that I agree with what you were expressing in your last paragraph. I got carried away and forgot to say that!
Anyone who is more concerned about the label or the technique than listening to an individual child's needs isn't someone who would make a good friend. My 3rd sounds just like your kids. I believe good parenting is about focusing on your child and his/her needs, and making the decisions that will best support them and respect them as they grow. Yes, sometimes in families we have to make complex decisions to choose the best overall outcome, but I don't think you can go wrong by making educated, sensitive and thoughtful decisions.
I try not to judge, but I do get upset when parents accept the status quo or think that, or following advice from a book to the letter, is the "right" way to raise children. We used to open every LLL meeting with the advice to "Keep an open mind, take what works for your family & leave the rest here."
Yes and yes to this! AP was the style and philosophy of parenting that I wanted to practice so much. Then it turned out my husband felt a little differently on some of the details, which I wanted to respect because I am deeply committed to my marriage as the strongest foundation to build happy and healthy kids on.
THEN we had twins.
They are nearly 7 months and until they were 6 months and started on solids they were exclusively breastfed. They *literally* spent every day of the first 14 weeks of their lives crying, and screaming, from 2pm to about 7pm. Nothing helped. Not holding them, rocking them, nursing them, etc. or if something did work one day it wouldn't work the next. And putting them in a sling and walking around with them until my husband came home from work was, quite simply, not an option. So all I could do was sit with them in their room, comforting alternatively, and most days we all cried together. It nearly killed me, and my marriage has taken a severe beating that I often think is irreparable. My PND is lifting and my boys are doing beautifully now, but my perception is that I'm not "allowed" to consider myself an Attached 'Parenter'.
Here's my point, if I have one: many of the arguments - mostly when reduced to a style, technique or tool (like a sling for example) as opposed to the philosophy - about AP leave parent of multiples or children with disabilities, and parents with disabilities, feeling even more isolated and marginalised. Ironic really.
I don't know if that makes sense. I guess in short I wanted to say I struggle(d) with the reality versus my intention, and like you Erin feel like I can't fit in because I did what I had to do to stop us from complete disintegration as a family.
Totally. There are always outside and individual circumstances that play a role.
I think that if we are going to put ourselves out there and share our thoughts and feelings about what we do or do not agree with, we have to accept that others are going to do the same. So to criticize one practice, but then get upset when someone challenges an other is not helpful in my opinion. I can completely accept that many people would disagree with many of my choices, just as I disagree with many other peoples choices. I try really hard not to get upset or take personally when someone expresses outrage at something I have either done, or don't have a problem with. I will still engage in that discussion to try and share my perspective and perhaps offer an experience that hasn't been considered... But we all have our right to be outraged by whatever outrages us.
Recently, a very good friend complained to me about the sight of an eight year old girl (a family friend) who chose to wear a hijab everyday to school (in Australia), because he thinks an eight year old is too young to be able to make an informed choices on religious identity, and that it's extremely bad parenting for her mother to let her 8 yo daughter go around wearing a hijab in the middle of summer. I was quite shocked by this because I know, the mother never forced her daughter to wear the hijab. To me, the mother's 'decision' to give in to the girl's request to wear a hijab is nothing controversial, and probably less of a worry about than my decision to let my three year old wear the same pink tutu and princess attributes 4 days a week.
Annie, I sure think the picture of the non-white female pointing her finger really suits (can't think of a better word in English) the ensuing discussion on cultural relativism, parenting choice, and male circumcision. :) What I like about the whole Amy Chua controversy is that it brings another dimension on the endless debates on parenting choices away from the usual mainstream- versus - non-mainstream choices. I am a cultural relativist when it comes to parenting practices and I thank Julie for highlighting the cultural context of parenting so eloquently.
I have lived in the 'West' since since I was 15, and funnily, all this time I really was never too bothered with my 'otherness' until I became a parent. While I never really bothered reconnecting with my 'roots' in my twenties, I have recently found comfort in having high frequency play dates with mothers from similar cultural background as me. The whole concept of parenting is fascinating to me, and sometimes, it is quite a struggle to integrate elements of two sets of different and often clashing parenting cultures and socio-cultural values/norms into my own.
I enjoy your blog immensely and I love the comments section even more. For the first time since discovering your blog almost three years ago, for the first time, today, I felt like I was in a mini rollercoaster reading the comments section.
Moving on to an entirely different ball game to the hijab example I illustrated earlier, to date, I don't believe male circumcision is abuse. So, maybe because where I came from, 'that's the way it's done' ( yes, it is recommended in my religion - not obligatory in my interpretation). But on the other hand, I also am familiar with the empirical literature on male circumcision and HIV infection in the less developed parts of the world, just as I am familiar with the line of arguments brought forward by NGOs working against circumcision in boys/male infants. I am usually highly accepting of other cultures and their associated ideals, but just today, I feel a little sensitive with the notion that educational campaign against male circumcision should be introduced to foreign aid packages.
@Emily I would say that is true of my experience with my younger daughter as well. She was adopted at 8 months old and was already very independent. Not necessarily a good thing as it has taken her longer to bond and fully attach to our family. I had every intention of co-sleeping, breastfeeding (I was breastfeeding her 14m old sister at the time), wearing her in a sling and all the rest of the traditional AP things. However, she hated all of it. She would NOT sleep in the bed with us. She WANTED to be put in the crib to sleep. It was all she wanted when she was tired to be put in the crib and for us to leave the room and lever her alone. She screamed like we were torturing her when I tried to nurse her. And she screamed like someone was stabbing her when I wore her in the wrap or sling. Eventually I resigned myself to her drinking breastmilk in a bottle, sleeping in her own bed and riding in a stroller. I felt terribly guilty. I was embarrassed to be around my AP friends and I felt like a total failure. Yet, I did what was best for her. Which I feel is in the spirit of AP parenting even if the practices were not in line with AP.
This is a side not but a touchy subject with me. While it is helpful to the parent who is abusing their child for action to be taken privately it is much more helpful for the child for action to be taken publicly. The more people who know that you think what the parent is doing is abusive the more likely they are to watch and to help. Plus, if the child knows you tried - even if nothing comes of it - they will grow up knowing that people saw them and tried to help. I say if something is abusive - even if no one will do anything about it - you should always say something. It helps a child to know that not all grown ups will take their parent's side and that they can ask for help. That they can want something better and that eventually they will be able to get it.
YES!
Wow. This is a great conversation. I guess I fall on the more judgmental side. I try to be the best parent I possibly can and I have strong feelings about what that should be. I often fall short of my own standards, but I do think there is a best way to parent, at least in broad philosophical terms. I partially agree with Amber that I have varying degrees of disagreement to outrage with practices like CIO (and degrees of CIO, as Annie pointed out). I'm not the relativist that believes that everyone does the best they can.
I'm not arguing that parents should lose their kids if they don't raise them the way I want and I'm not going to say someone is a "bad" parent unless they fall far enough on the abusive or neglectful end of the parenting spectrum. I think a relativist view of parenting practices only helps to perpetuate bad ones. Just my two cents.
Upstatemamma and Erin, to me, at least, AP is more about responding to what your child needs with babywearing, cosleeping, etc. more like suggestions on how to do that rather than absolutes you must do or you're a horrible mom. If your child sleeps better by herself rather than cosleeping or if she needs to fuss a bit to let out some energy before sleeping, then that's what they need and responding to that need, to me, is more in line with what I understand AP to be than cosleeping or what have you just for the sake of being able to say you do it.
I love hearing about how parents came to the decision to parent the way they do because it helps me look at parenting in new ways and question my own assumptions (as long as the reasoning is "this is what works for our family" rather than "that's what everyone else does").
Annie, kudos to you for starting an extremely valuable dialogue! I think that karengreeners said it *perfectly* above. Clearly (&Hopefully) we're all doing our best for our own children and our own families. I also agree to the points that question how can we possibly grow if we neverever reflect, learn and change accordingly.
I have two last thoughts or totally & completely lifted quotes that I love:
-"The most dangerous reason to do things is "Because that's the way we've always done it." And:
-"Not all judgements are bad."
We all judge as thinking, breathing humans. It's natural and normal and necessary for our own development. It's where we go from that thinking, what actions we take. And that right there is the rub: How do we treat others after we judge?
Again, thanks Annie for this graceful post on a tricky topic.
Galit:
I love that last part - i.e. "How do we treat others after we judge?"
Okay, I can see what you mean in this comment. I hadn't thought of it that way before.
I'm with you about doing neither to my children.
I really agree with your comment, Jake.
I also want to add that, not only parenting practices are different in other places, but even critique practices are different! I come from a country where people are rather direct and honest, and we don't even have a word for "politically correct"because I guess that's just not what we strive for. So, that just adds another little layer to the conversion :-)
Regarding the criticism of non-mainstream parenting, this is not just the case for parenting, but for many other issues. The first women who went to work were accused of abandoning their families, female firefighters are maybe accused of being masculine, single moms are often accused of being selfish ... the list of ridiculous assumptions is endless, and co-sleeping or not having a TV is no different.
For me, fitting into society only works as long as I think society is doing a good (even, the best) job at something. And if not, then I have no issue standing up for my own concepts and values, not only is that more honest and authentic, but also is it the only way to potentially bring about change. I don't really want my daughter to fit into a group where girls can only wear pink and are obsessed with being a princess. Does anyone's son want to be a prince? nope. it sucks. And I speak up about it, so imagine the topic of force-waxing ... I think if we're trying to teach our child one thing, but then hide it or are too polite to defend it outside our home, the child will pick up on this really quickly and feel actually more like an outsider.
I think that we have to accept that we are judgmental. And the more seriously we take our parenting, the more judgmental we tend to be. Like Galit said, we need to work on how we treat people we may have judged. We also need to recognize that if people perceive that they are judged or criticized, we have lost any chance of influencing them. Kind of the same as with our children. :) We have to let go, really let go, before changes can occur. And it's a lifelong process.
There are effective ways to share information and support without alienating (most) parents even if they decide to make different choices.
(Sarah, I enjoyed reading your post.)
I think we all need to share our experiences, thoughts and ideas. That's how we iron them out and whittle them down to our own beliefs. A mind open to education with the ability to re-adjust opinions will more likely be heading down a healthy path. Whether we're discussing parenting, work or even running the world we all need the ability to listen to ideas, internalize them, form our own opinions and then put them into action. Ideas are nothing without collaboration. Even within these posts I can see this lovely supportive trend arising but it only came after people stopped worrying about being judged.
So I guess, how can you start up a conversation about parenting without making the other parent feel like they are being judged? Is there a way to skip over the walls of defensiveness and just go straight to talking about the good stuff?
"We also need to keep that dialogue respectful, regardless of whether we are criticizing our neighbour, a fellow blogger, or some anonymous woman on YouTube."
If we keep the dialogue respectful then we may be listened to... we may even plant a seed of change. As a mother I am listening, changing and growing all of the time. Practices I frowned upon in my 20's (e.g. extended breastfeeding) are practices I value in my 40's - I didn't come to this change all in one go, but through conversations, studies I have read, blogs etc. maybe someone planted a seed (or several) and gradually I changed the way I thought. If the people I talked to about this were rude or disrespectful in their opinions, then I am sure I would not have listened.
Okay, but every single comment on here judges people who chose to circumcise their son. I'm a bad parent because I did the same research you all did and chose to circumcise is what I've gotten out of 95% of your comments. Why did we chose to do it? Because I use to work for a urologist. For your 20 studies showing harmful effects of circumcision, I can show your 20 more with the benefits. I chose the best for my family yet you are all judging me :)
What I don't like about the Chinese mom's WSJ piece is that it left out a big part of the story that was in the book. The WSJ story was link bait. It got people's attention. If you read the book, you'll find out that these techniques she used worked for her older girl. Her younger? Not so much. She's now relaxed her parenting style and her kids are allowed to go to sleepovers among other things.
Lisa:
I do think circumcision is wrong. That doesn't mean that I think you are a bad parent.
I don't know any parent whose parenting choices I agree with 100% of the time. That doesn't mean that I think that everyone except for me is a bad parent.
In fact, I don't agree with my own choices all of the time and I'm certainly not going to call myself a bad parent.
The point I was trying to make in this post is that I find it hypocritical when people say "we shouldn't judge each other" when their own parenting practices are criticized and then they write posts or tweets criticizing the parenting practices of those they think are worse than they are. Either it is okay to criticize, because the discussion is valuable or because children could otherwise be in danger, or it isn't okay to criticize and that applies to everyone. I'm on the side of saying that discussion is valuable.
Absolutely Jess. Though I personally try not to label myself, I would say I lean towards AP, and it's not *really* because I practice co-sleeping, extended bf, and some other things. AP is NOT a list of "thou shalts" at all, it's about trusting the child and not doing things to break the parent-child bond or push independence before the child is ready (Jan Hunt has a good article about what AP actually is). Now, I personally think there are choices that are counter to maintaining that bond, but if a child naturally prefers to sleep independently? She should be allowed to do so then! AP is about meeting a child's needs, and children's needs do have some variation.
Thoughtful, provoking post :) I have not read the currently 77 comments as of yet so I'm responding to the post itself.
I agree with respectful questioning of practices, or the status quo. The "problem" with doing so is that the person receiving the questioning may not feel it is "respectful" if they are in any way feeling shame for the practice - receipt of comments is based on perspective. Certainly, one can refrain from attacking, slander, and the like...
Distilled down, our children our not our property to do with what we like. They are infinitely valuable souls. The question does arise, in many forms, how do we "raise" someone who can contribute positively to society. Of course that's based on belief systems, many which do not include that children are already enough, as they are. No "raising" is actually necessary. Only nurturing and loving guidance.
That's quite a conclusion to come to on a moment-to-moment basis, though, in societies that often treat children like second class citizens.
i have very much enjoyed this blog post and discussion. i think we all need to talk less, listen more. just as each of our children are different and we need to truly understand their individual needs and adjust our parenting to each child, each parent also has different needs, education, cultural upbringing, and immediate and long term circumstances, etc. that need to be taken into consideration before we can try to help, let alone judge, in any given situation. perhaps before offering advice or criticism to another, we can first hear their story. personally, it is difficult for me to listen to an opposing view without feeling defensive; it is something i am continually working on because that defensive stance makes it impossible for me to truly hear what the other is saying, and real dialog is obscured or lost. i want to write more but my two little ones have toddled in from their naps and their needs trump my need to talk about listening ;)
Well said both of you! I think on the internet especially people can get very caught up in what they think of something and not really listen to the other person's point of view. Maybe that's true in real life to but people are usually less outspoken about it. :)
I as well have not read all of the above comments(no time for them ALL!) so hopefully I am not contributing something useless or repetitive to the conversation...
I guess what I think is an important piece here is to widen our gaze, so to speak. The line for me is when we are making observations(judgements) about parenting styles and practices, are we doing it because we actually care about the future of civilization, or because it feels really "good" to be better than someone? There is a difference between judging a person for making a choice, and calling out the coercion and oppression that leads to many "choices" that are being made in our culture. If someone chooses to circumcise their son based on misleading medical information, is that really a "choice"? Certainly not an empowered one. If someone who is, say, fourth in a generational line of women who were told (falsely) by a patriarchal medical system that they could not breastfeed because their milk was no good, and has no familial or cultural support to breast feed her babies, chooses to bottle feed her babies, should she be judged for that choice? I would say certainly not, but the oppressive circumstances that led to it even being an issue in the first place needs to be named, outed.
I really think the whole rhetoric of "choice" is just a tool to keep us separated, I do. It leads us to be judging one another's actions when what we really need to be looking at scornfully and critically is society.
I get so angry when I see posters promoting breastfeeding, for example. When I had my son there was so much media in the hospital about how breastfeeding was the best, but you see? All it does is make it about the woman, about her choice to breastfeed or not, and if she fails, well, then she must not have wanted it badly enough...oh, how callous and uncaring these mothers. What I want to know is, if we as a culture actually care about breastfeeding, then where are the mass public education campaigns letting EVERYONE know that it is okay for women to nurse in public? That educate the public about nursing womens' increased nutritional needs? But no, of course it's all about "womens' choices". How incredibly empowered and feminist of us.
The breastfeeding thing is just an example. But hopefully I am making sense...I am quite tired.
The point is, we don't really get anywhere when we get caught up in judging others' singular actions, but we need to zoom out and look at the cultural milieu in which these things are taking place, and be merciless in our judgement of it. Perhaps it is such a hard discussion because we have all been hurt by the kyriarchy, thus when the status quo is questioned, it is very triggering for us?
[...] to this article as well as to various other parenting practices, Annie at PhD in Parenting wonders “Where is the line?” and when and how it is acceptable to criticize or even express outr.... I’m always glad when I jump in early with a comment on one of her posts; I subscribe to the [...]
I think about this issue a lot too and having skimmed the comments I find one issue lacking in both post and comments. That is, the culture of defensiveness that makes this type of discussion so thorny. I think that while we have a responsibility to be gentle about how we express our opinions and experiences, we also have responsibility to listen to other people's opinions/experiences without assuming that it reflects badly on us. That is, if someone talks about how they have used co-sleeping successfully and I haven't, I shouldn't assume they are saying I am a bad parent. We need to focus onw hat is being said: cosleeping worked for them. Conversely, if someone says spanking has worked (as my aunt did one time, regarding her granddaughters/my nieces) then I should not assume that she means I must spank my children too and then attack her for asking me to do something (she did not). It is our responsibility to act calmly as well, because without that no discussion is possible. And in some cases, discussion is too emotional and unlikely to change the other person's view. In the case with my aunt, I said something like "I realise some people think that, but I disagree". And that was that. I think people usually change their opinions by their own experience or seeing results/change, not by someone telling them what they are doing is not the proper way.
Carla, you make a good point about our culture of defensiveness. I often feel like I can't express my thoughts on breast feeding, for example, because anyone who didn't breast feed takes offense. I am also prone to take offense when someone starts talking about "self-soothing", etc. I was more prone to it when my twins were younger, I'm starting to get over it now. You are right about dialogue. Another pp also commented on changing one's mind over time as one is exposed to different ideas, experiences (although I don't think it all has to be experiential), etc. I certainly have changed my mind after listening and reading the thoughts of others. Isn't that what learning is about?
Maybe this culture of defensiveness stems from a culture of superiority? I will have to ponder that some more.
Andrea,
I find the comment about parental convenience an interesting one, because many times I can swear that the choices I made as a parent (extended nursing, cosleeping, nursing on demand, "elimination communication", etc) were also super convenient (more-so than the alternative - could I imagine dragging a stroller AND many bottles and formula... on every trip?). I think many of the "granola" parenting choices are good not only for baby but for mom (and dad!).
This "culture of defensiveness" was sort of what I was trying to get at with my comment above, about questioning the status quo being triggering...thank you for elucidating that.
What I meant was, that since we are all functioning within the context of a culture where "empowered" decisions are not the norm (ie. generations of parents making decisions based on constantly shifting advice from "experts" who rarely have their or their children's best interest in mind, to name one example) when something is questioned, it triggers a wound in us that was caused by not having had the chance to live our lives with autonomy and empowered decision-making. And I am talking on a cultural, and not individual, level, thus this would create such a "culture of defensiveness". Does that make sense?
I think it makes sense and it links to my ideas on the roots of this culture of defensiveness, which I think, without veering too far off track from the topic, is a result of the 'me' focus of Western culture. The 'me' focus, is all about how 'I'm going to get ahead', but also about how everything 'affects me'. It provides the context to how we absorb information/events around us, and it makes it everything we hear 'about me'. I think that is why it is very difficult to talk about, for example, how I have breastfed two kids without ever using formula (that was my personal goal) because let's say, a friend who has used formula, may think 'what is she saying about "ME"?' Am I not a good mom then too? And actually, I have said nothing about her, just that I am happy I have reached a goal I set for myself. And rather than the listener thinking, well, that's great you reached your goal, and you must be happy that you did that, they think, well I have used formula and she is now judging me to not be an achieved mother. And actually, it is not. Of course, tone and timing make a difference, as does the relationship between the people conversing, but that does not mean the words should be listened to. I think there is too much time/energy spent on having a conversation in the head on what a statement implies, rather than on focusing on what is actually being said. Again because of this 'me' thing. I think the thinking of 'me' really clouds people's perceptions and makes genuine conversation difficult because when this is present, one tends to listen through the prism of 'me' rather than of the speaker. This is a cultural thing I think, and by cultural I don't mean belonging to a particular country, but more to a particular system, an individualist culture that focuses on the 'I'. By being so individualistic we forget to listen with compassion for the other. This is something I think about a lot on how to truly listen and be present.
Jake, did they cut off too much?? Awww I can see that you are Jewish by your name..Aryeh...or maybe they did not cut off enough? Which one is it? Don't be so sour. I am surprised that you would be against circumcision considering you are a Jewish man and apparently parading your very Hebrew middle name online. It's Jewish people like you that I can't understand. You know when we were in the Soviet Union, we were not allowed to practice Brit( where Brit is translated as Covenant), and our grandfathers had to risk their positions and lives to arrange for it to be done for their sons. You know why? Because this is what G-D commanded us to do; this is how the soul of a newborn is linked to the souls of Am Yisroel. Are there benefits to circumcision, yes, there is protection from HIV as well as other STDs and infections (most of these epidemiological studies have been done on a large scale and confirmed). Is it abuse? No, of course not. There are careful laws to make sure that the baby is not ill or underweight, and the procedure itself is quick and performed to ensure the minimum amount of discomfort to the baby. Also I am extremely happy that in the US, many families decide to circumcise their sons; it's medically beneficial. Also when guys grow up, being circumcised is better (and cleaner) for women in the long run (sexually). Interestingly, the US is called B'Artzot HaBrit in Hebrew (the land of the covenant), I am glad that that the US has such a common cultural bond with the Israel and Jewish people. It's people like you who take away freedoms of other people.
Well, I *was* going to begin my response concerning your ability to do research by noting your failure to click my name to see who I am but for some reason my links seems to have gone dark (Annie??)
In fact I am not a man, circumcised or otherwise. I am a Jewish *woman*, mother to three uncircumcised Jewish sons. Of course the rest of what you wrote is utter bullshit as well but I suppose my gender is something you can be forgiven for not knowing.
I am an atheist as well as a Jew so arguments concerning the commandments of god are meaningless to me. But imagining I did believe in a god, unlike Abraham I would not sacrifice my sons on command. I believe my role here is to protect them. I like to think that if there were a god, she would agree but truly I don't care.
So the rest of what you write is just bitchy babble. An infant doesn't have to be ill or underweight to experience physical pain. Men would be safer from STDs, including HIV, if we amputated the entire penis. How about we do that? Or how about we teach our sons to wash their penises and practice safer sex?
Congratulations on one thing. You destroyed what had been a civil discussion.
Out of curiosity, how does one "parade" one's name? Should I start using a pseudonym so you don't have to acknowledge there are Jewish mothers who refuse to circumcise their sons?
Sorry, I did not realize that Jake could be a girl's name, I guess it must be your son's name? Well, I mean you purposely wrote "Aryeh" (that means Lion in Hebrew), so I thought you were Jewish, and looked like you are one of those people who have an English name like Jake, and then you would emphasize you middle name to point out that you are connected to the tribe so to speak. In any case, we don't know why G-D asked Abraham to sacrafice Isaak, but you forget that G-D already knew that Isaak would be ok, that's why he sent the beautiful white ram, and also as midrash tells us Isaac went blind because while Isaac was lying there tied up, angels were crying. In any case, this is the story of Jewish people... Another question, Why did Holocaust happen? The answer is, we are just dust, and we don't know. The fact that you are an atheist means nothing to me. You believe in nothing. However, I give you the freedom to believe what you want, unlike your judgmental nonsense. By the way, read the book by the head of the NIH, he is a physician and PhD and he now believes in G-D, used to be an atheist like yourself.
In general, again I reiterate my points:
1) baby feels no pain or minimum amount of pain cause everything is done to minimize it, it's just a very low-key procedure, any doctor can tell you that, probably less painful than getting an IV
2) Jewish law ensures that babies who are not ready would not be subjected to it
3) Your don't know what it is like not being able to have the freedom to practice your religion, and it's a blessing that we have this freedom in the US
4) It's a blessing that Jewish men don't have to be discriminated here because of circumcision
5) you know what Nazis did ,they just pull guys' pants down to check, and then shoot them, and you know what your sons would not have been harmed, I guess Congratulations!!! You saved them. You are ashamed of being Jewish, that's your issue...
Great post. I also find a distinct difference between those who want dialogue - and those who pose questions or offer 'advice' in a way that seems/states clearly they want to demonstrate their superior knowledge/skills. A small (or not so small!) way to exercise supremacy (I am better than you & in the circle of the 'right' people, you are relegated to the outside, the bad Other).
And I agree the language of 'choice' often effaces real issues (like how one can make true choices in the absence of info or empowerment).
But I don't think that the language of choice is actually about/driven by feminism - it is in many cases a kind of backlash that co-opts the surface ('choice is freedom from oppression' etc) to come back to reinforcing kyriarchy.
Thus as you say, casting BF as solely an issue of 'woman's choice' leaves it all as a woman's pass/fail in isolation, rather than a complex of issues that are very systemic. Then we can do the classic and necessary function of all supremacist systems: (re)focusing the *responsibility* on women, while maintaining the *authority* in the kyriarchy. That's very antifeminist indeed.
"I will not feed the trolls. I will not feed the trolls. I will not feed the fucking trolls."
Yeah, you pegged me. Self-hating Jew. Which is why I "parade" my Hebrew name, ya know, because I hate myself sooo much. I would never want anyone to know I am Jewish.
And the Holocaust? I am responsible for that too. All my fault. And the Lindburgh baby. I kidnapped him. And that was me on the grassy knoll.
Good points. I'd like to add this wrinkle: our society's structure demanding hierarchy in all things.
So we hear comments (on anything, really) and the "me" factor sends us to:
where does that puts me in a hierarchy (here that of The Good Parent)? Does the person speaking have the power to place me beneath them, or can I slough it off?
It often doesn't seem to matter if the practice in question is actually beneficial or poor - it's just whether it's an acceptable definer of 'x'. The important bit is separating the Good and the Bad.
I knew it was you on the grassy knoll. Mystery solved.
Shalom Jake Aryeh,
That's one funny post. I guess I am good at the Jewish guilt thing. Look, it's enough that you call yourself Jewish, it means a lot to me. I have many relatives and friends who believe the same as you, i.e. they are atheists and Jewish (some product of Stalin, some of Hitler, some of materialism, some of lack of learning, being stubborn, some are just destined to be this way because of how they are), and they are more to me than the most orthodox observant people cause they are family and friends. In any case, there is no supremacy, right or wrong, there is just life, and life shapes us all in a different way. Just don't call circumcision a child abuse because it's jsut not doing us any good PR :-).
Sorry, I disagree. YES I think forcefully waxing a child's eyebrows is awful and abusive and wrong and should never be done, but THEY WILL GROW BACK! A foreskin will not grow back. And if we listen to some of the men who were circumcised talk about how it has affected them sexually, emotionally, psychologically and even spiritually, then we have to admit that it's an order of magnitude of difference.
Andrea, you nailed it, the question of circumcision should be similar to "immunize or not immunize". For many people, not circumcising poses a health concern. It's a preventative medical procedure that has been done for centuries. Additionally, it's a cultural thing because often times when men in the family are circumcised, the parents (in particular the mother) will choose to circumcise the sons, and vice versa when the father is not circumcised, sons don't end up circumcised. Sorry now, I see that phd parenting already brought up this issue. I don't think it's a cosmetic thing, it's a cultural thing, aka has to do with specifically male culture. I am not an anthropologist, but I think when daddy wants his son to look the same, it's because that's something cultural, not cosmetic. Dads think it's a) cleaner b) how it's done c) son should look like dad, and obviously there are religious reasons for many people.
Jake, I also want to be serious. I don't think you understood me. I don't blame you for anything.
First, I want to clarify something from the story about Abraham. My point was that we don't know why G-D asked this of Abraham, it was a test. We all have many tests in our lives, and we don't know why we are subjected to these difficulties. But you can't judge Abraham for several reasons. 1) He was born in ancient Mesopotamia where human sacrafice was not uncommon, in fact children were sacrificed to Baal. 2) He was hoping and praying and crying that G-D will spare his son. 3) You don't know the magnitude of the spiritual experience that Abraham had, maybe if you had it, you would have done the same because you have not experienced it. 4) Abraham had his trust in G-D.
Now if you blame G-D for doing this to Abraham, then you must understand that maybe the point was to show Abraham that G-D (the all powerful, limitless entity) is not like the idols and does not require human sacrafices, and as I said many things in life you can blame G-D for. You could blame G-D for holocaust, but the problem is that bad people did this, this evil is internalized within us. Hitler's aim was a barbaric society with no morality or religion. In the words of a good write David Bezmozgis from his short story "Minyan": "When a Jew does not go to synagogue; this means Hitler has won". Also take a great humanist Elie Wiesel, he has been through the hell of Auschwitz, but he is still a very spiritual and religious man. He's seen what people are capable of, and he's seen G-D's miracles when people get saved in very unlikely ways in most terrible circumstances when it seemed like their was no way out.
By not circumcising your sons, you are trying to protect them from the pain that you associate with this procedure, but in doing so you are also excluding them in some way, breaking their cultural and religious connections to Jewish people; but nonetheless they still remain Jewish. I agree with you that circumcision is not the only thing that defines us as people. Yes, Nazis did identify Jews based on that characteristic, but they also obviously shipped off to camps not only circumcised Jewish people, they shipped off all of them, even those who were reform, who were atheists, who were only one quater jewish (had Jewish grandma), so your choice would not have protected your sons.
I only blame you a little bit for criticising this medical procedure because when a Jewish person does it, he or she betrays her own tradition and people, and it could incite some non-Jewish people to forbid us to practice our religion. By labeling this procedure an abhorent name like abuse, you are creating a new myth like blood libel, and we don't want that to happen. Thankfully, most people on these blog appear as reasonable people and not antisemitic or racists in any sort of way, so your comment will not cause any harm.
PS: Another interesting food for thought for you: as far as religion goes, you could also look at Christianity, and say why did G-D send his only son Jesus to die for humanity, that was cruel, again you will find that most people don't see it that way. But in some way it was the opposite of the sacrafice that Abraham did. G-D did not ask Abraham to gie up his son, and that's why you should be happy about what happened to Abraham and his son.
Mara:
This is the last comment on this topic that I will approve. This post is not a forum to debate the merits of circumcision at length or to berate or belittle people who have chosen not to. I appreciate your passion for your viewpoint and I have given you plenty of room to express it. But I do not want to entertain this discussion any further here nor do I appreciate the personal and accusatory tone that you have taken in some of your posts.
yes, great point you've made in that we get raised into the culture/society that we are born into, and...you have a great point about what's important to parents based on their own jobs/lives gets translated into raising kids...